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Post by Kapitan on Nov 22, 2023 17:54:32 GMT
Some relatively recent discussions about the potential futures of the Beach Boys b(r)and spurred a thought for a poll and some discussion. Please note, this is not meant to be a legal question, nothing about the contract/arrangement/license under which Mike and Bruce tour as the Beach Boys, but rather only your opinion on that fuzzy idea of what is "right."
With Brian Wilson off the road for good, do you think that changes Mike's obligation to the Beach Boys fan base in terms of how he runs the b(r)and?
For example, do you think he ought to cater more to the faction of the fan base that preferred Wilson's style of touring? (Yes there is significant overlap between the groups, but Wilson's bands tended to tour more theaters than Love's, and their set lists were fleshed out by songs of different styles.) Or does he owe it to the fan base to try to unite as many principals, family members, and longtime associates as possible? Feel free to take it wherever you want.
Or do you think he's more than free to run the b(r)and however he sees fit under the terms of the license, continuing to use shows as a venue for his solo output, keeping his heavy workload and preferred setlist styles as-is?
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
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Post by Emdeeh on Nov 22, 2023 19:02:10 GMT
Nope, no difference and no obligation. Mike tours the way he wants to, and other BB principals' (active or not) shows don't change that. I'm pretty sure Scott Totten was doing a lot of the deep-diving into the catalog for Mike and Bruce's shows. Maybe Ike will take up that cause, but it looks like the M&B band is leaning more towards a harder rock sound and performing approach these days.
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Nov 22, 2023 21:39:38 GMT
I guess the short and easy answer is he can do whatever he wants, as he has been since 1998 (minus 2012). Sure, I would love for him to add Al and Matt Jardine and maybe Darian and Paul. I haven't done in depth research, but it seems like the setlists have been cut. A long US show would be 37-40 songs, while a short one would 33-34 songs. Now it seems like 33-34 are the long sets, while other venues only get 30-31. I think it's far from unreasonable to have a 40-song set with something along the lines of 35 set songs with five or so rotating. There's plenty of capable singers to split lead duties, of course. 40 gets Mike his covers as well as includes popular songs that get left out otherwise. Since I have time to kill on this day before Thanksgiving, I'll make my ideal and mostly realistic set list.
1. Do It Again 2. Catch a Wave 3. Surfin' Safari 4. Hawaii 5. Don't Back Down 6. Rockaway Beach 7. Surfin' USA
8. Be True to Your School 9. When I Grow Up (To Be a Man) 10. You're So Good to Me 11. In my Room
12. Surfer Girl 13. Farmer's Daughter 14. Good to My Baby 15. I'm So Young 16. Wendy
17. All Summer Long 18. 409 19. Little Deuce Coupe 20. Shut Down 21. I Get Around
Intermission
22. Getcha Back 23. California Dreamin' 24. Warmth of the Sun 25. Disney Girls 26. Pisces Brothers
27. Sloop John B 28. Here Today 29. Wouldn't It Be Nice 30. God Only Knows
31. Do You Wanna Dance 32. Dance, Dance, Dance 33. Help Me, Rhonda
34. Forever 35. California Girls 36. Wild Honey 37. Darlin' 38. It's Ok 39. Rock n Roll Music
40. Kokomo 41. Barbara Ann 42. Good Vibrations 43. Fun Fun Fun
I went a little over, but hey, it's not like it's going to happen anyway!
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 22, 2023 22:37:37 GMT
I voted "No, Brian's retirement does NOT change Mike's obligation to the fans." I have a lot to say on this subject but instead of one marathon post, I'm going to break it up into a few or several.
First, I don't think Mike has to make any changes with his band. I wish he would and have posted such. I'd love to see Al Jardine and David Marks be Beach Boys again, but that'll never happen. I do, however, think it was a misconception by fans, the press, and other concerned people that Brian's solo touring band somehow forced Mike to make changes with his band, or motivated him to up his game. Oh, I think it bothered Mike when he would read articles or hear comments about Brian's band - you know, The Greatest Band out there touring. Didn't Paul McCartney say something like that, so it must've been true. And, no matter what Mike said, I'm sure he read the articles and heard the comments. But, what was he gonna do about it? Start firing people? Add people? Rehearse more? Mike didn't have to do anything with the configuration of his band and he basically didn't. He already had a great band, too, and in my opinion just as good or as talented as Brian's. Then why all of the praise for Brian's band and not Mike's. Simple. Two reasons. First, because it was Brian Wilson, and second, Brian had more band members which could produce a different sound. It didn't make his band better, just more versatile. Going forward, in Brian's absence, should Mike go for that versatility? Again, I wish he would but he doesn't have to. Not with his setlist, and there's nothing wrong with his setlist BTW (more to come on that), other than his solo songs performed. Really, only a few songs in Mike & Bruce's set need added augmentation so it's not necessary to employ more musicians. Heck, he barely uses the horn player.
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Post by lonelysummer on Nov 23, 2023 20:51:45 GMT
Did I miss something? Was there an official announcement that Brian's retired?
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 24, 2023 0:58:18 GMT
Did I miss something? Was there an official announcement that Brian's retired? No, but he pulled out of a tour that wasn't going well (in terms of his performances), never went back to finish it, hasn't scheduled anything else, and if I'm not mistaken, some people around him have hinted at least that he's done. (I know a few people have said so, and now I'm struggling to remember who, specifically. Did Al say it looks like he's done? I just can't recall.) The timing of the thread isn't related to any new developments or announcements or anything. Just something that crossed my mind as fodder for conversation.
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
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Likes: 532
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Post by Emdeeh on Nov 24, 2023 6:00:02 GMT
... some people around him [Brian] have hinted at least that he's done. (I know a few people have said so, and now I'm struggling to remember who, specifically. Did Al say it looks like he's done? I just can't recall.) It was Carnie.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 24, 2023 11:53:21 GMT
... some people around him [Brian] have hinted at least that he's done. (I know a few people have said so, and now I'm struggling to remember who, specifically. Did Al say it looks like he's done? I just can't recall.) It was Carnie. Yes, thank you! (My memory...)
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 24, 2023 12:39:10 GMT
Yes, thank you! (My memory...) It was a few months ago when Carnie Wilson was interviewed on Beach Boys Talk and, I can't quote her, but she pretty much said that Brian was retired from touring.
Back to the thread topic...Over the last 25 years, Brian did step out of the norm and perform entire albums including That Lucky Old Sun, Pet Sounds, and BWPS (it's hard to believe that BWPS was almost 20 years ago ), and, yes, it was a successful exercise. I should also mention that Brian also addressed the Gershwin project, some of the 1967-68 era, and a few Christmas music concerts. Those performances got national attention and kind of awoken many older, long-time fans who were into those types of exercises. On a side note, Brian also milked some of those performances by getting live albums/DVDs out of them.
Anyway, despite the national attention, the praise Brian got for being more artistic, and Brian trying to do something...new (as opposed to the old tried and true setlists), those projects were relatively short, and in my opinion, the bulk of Brian's audience still showed up to hear the hits. Yes, it was touching and rewarding to hear SMiLE or Pet Sounds or some Friends' tracks, but the songs that the audience clapped to, sang along to, and even got out of their seats for were the classic hits. Those were the songs that kept the tours alive for decades. And, I'll also mention there were reports that, at some of Brian's later concerts, there were multiple empty seats or sections of venues closed off.
My point? I don't know how much Brian's "specialty" concerts will be missed. And Mike knows this. Going back for a second, I don't think Brian's outstanding band put pressure on Mike to change his band, but I do think Brian's playing deeper or more obscure songs crept into Mike's setlists a bit. I don't think it was a coincidence that Mike & Bruce started to play some more lesser hits/B-sides/album tracks, though they were still excellent songs, hidden gems if you will. Who knows, maybe Mike & Bruce would've gone more in that direction anyway, after performing the same songs over and over.
One last thing on this topic...the history books will point out how Brian did perform entire albums in concert, but in reality, for the most part, as time went by, Mike and Brian's setlists were very similar. There was a lot of overlap. And, while some fans would go to Brian's show for one type of music while going to a Mike & Bruce concert for another type, they came away hearing mostly the same songs, just different lead singers.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 24, 2023 13:26:06 GMT
I don't disagree with you about the similarities. That's why I did try to word it pretty carefully rather than what was the cliche, especially in the earlier days of Brian's touring: Brian's shows are full of rarities perfectly executed by a top-notch band to upscale audiences and hipsters; while Mike's were a cheap tribute band hacking their way through surf 'n' car hits to morbidly obese Midwestern fairgoers. (Exaggerated for effect...)
As for those specialty tours, I mostly think they weren't that important. A few were. The initial Pet Sounds tour was huge; and the BWPS project was borderline earth-shattering in importance to pop music and especially BBs/BW fans. The TLOS stuff was great. After that, the gimmicks didn't matter much to me, and the Neverending Pet Sounds Farewell was downright annoying. But I really don't think most tours need themes. If you have a new album, I'd like you to lean on that a little. If not, just play a great set. It doesn't have to be "The Labor Day / All the B-Sides in Chronological Order Tour feat. Jimmy Buffet's Original Bassist" or whatever...
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 24, 2023 14:18:17 GMT
OK, my take on the original question of the thread is actually in flux. It was in flux when I asked, too. The truth is, I am of more than one mind.
If I were to be consistent with the way I've spoken throughout most of my online fandom, I'd say Mike owes the fans nothing with respect to the sorts of things I was implying: artists do what they do for reasons they choose; and the public chooses whether to pay to support them. Nobody owes anybody anything. The remaining Beach Boys' principals clearly do not want to work together, as has been demonstrated by their realities over the past many decades now. Or, at the very least, the Beach Boys do not think the relevant compromises necessary to work together are worth making. That's just how it is, and if those who prefer Team Wilson are left in the cold from here on out, such is life. It's not Mike Love's job to make sure Brian Wilson's chosen path remains properly mowed and tended for the fans.
But as much as I've been an anti-sentimental person most of the time, maybe I'm becoming an old sap, myself. Because there is part of me that says, no, it's not something Mike owes anyone. But on some level it is the right thing to do to ensure the final Beach Boys moments--and we're in those moments, whether it's another six months or five years, the clock is ticking ... loudly--are as good as they can be, are the band going out with a bang rather than a few disparate whimpers, are a celebration of the almost unmatched contribution to popular music. And the latter would mean mending relationships to the highest degree possible. Finding a way for Al, David, maybe even Blondie, to participate in the active work of the band, not just occasional promotional appearances to push product or watch ribbon-cuttings. Working in the various eras and styles and contributions to a larger degree, rather than focusing on the Mike Love Experience.
Both angles make sense to me. I suppose it's the difference between obligation and unobligated, higher "rightness." So maybe both are true. Not "is Mike obligated," but "would it be best if Mike..." Maybe that's my official, wobbly and wavering stance.
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Post by B.E. on Nov 24, 2023 14:36:20 GMT
I don't have strong feelings about this topic except on one point: Mike does have an obligation to fans both under the terms of the license and beyond due to the fact that he tours as The Beach Boys. The idea that he has no obligation and can do whatever he wants just doesn't make any sense to me.
A strict reading of the question, "Does BW's retirement change Mike Love's obligation to Beach Boys fans?", would lead me to answering 'No'. The obligation exists, but remains unchanged. That said, in the spirit of the topic, I answered 'Yes'. As the principal member touring as The Beach Boys, of course he should be aware of all things going on in the Beach Boys universe and how those things might affect (and, potentially, should be reflected by) the touring arm of the b(r)and. The removal of Brian and his band from the touring landscape is no minor thing. Perhaps any changes that might/should result are indeed quite subtle, but Mike should take Brian's absence into consideration.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 24, 2023 15:09:35 GMT
I don't have strong feelings about this topic except on one point: Mike does have an obligation to fans both under the terms of the license and beyond due to the fact that he tours as The Beach Boys. The idea that he has no obligation and can do whatever he wants just doesn't make any sense to me. A strict reading of the question, "Does BW's retirement change Mike Love's obligation to Beach Boys fans?", would lead me to answering 'No'. The obligation exists, but remains unchanged. That said, in the spirit of the topic, I answered 'Yes'. As the principal member touring as The Beach Boys, of course he should be aware of all things going on in the Beach Boys universe and how those things might affect (and, potentially, should be reflected by) the touring arm of the b(r)and. The removal of Brian and his band from the touring landscape is no minor thing. Perhaps any changes that might/should result are indeed quite subtle, but Mike should take Brian's absence into consideration. Other than presenting a professional show, what other obligations do you think are in those terms of the license?
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Post by B.E. on Nov 24, 2023 15:41:27 GMT
I don't have strong feelings about this topic except on one point: Mike does have an obligation to fans both under the terms of the license and beyond due to the fact that he tours as The Beach Boys. The idea that he has no obligation and can do whatever he wants just doesn't make any sense to me. Other than presenting a professional show, what other obligations do you think are in those terms of the license? I wish I could recall the thread in which I really delved into this. (Although, it's possible I mostly just read older threads and researched similar contracts - with limited posting on my part). But, for now, I don't think there would be many overly specific obligations beyond putting on a professional show of Beach Boys music. That would be the crux of it. Not that there wouldn't be any other obligations or limitations and not that the licensor (BRI) wouldn't ultimately be in control of. But as I alluded to above, I do think the obligation extends beyond the license itself.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 25, 2023 13:43:25 GMT
I think the fact that Brian Wilson did...quietly...retire from touring and there hasn't really been much, if any, reaction, even from diehard fans answers this thread's question somewhat. Oh, of course fans are sad to see one of their favorites and someone who is so important in their musical life age and eventually retire. And, in a way a void is created for those who looked forward to seeing Brian every year or so. Seeing Brian live was something to look forward to. He did bring some surprises both with his setlists and the variety of band members. But, knowing that we still have Mike & Bruce putting on such a professional show does help in keeping The Beach Boys alive in a unique way. I couldn't find the right word so I used unique. Maybe current, still with us, sentimental, a sense of security, all is right with the world, keepin' those good vibrations a-happening, etc. You know what I mean. And, ultimately, it has to be a compliment to Mike & Bruce.
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