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Post by kds on May 17, 2023 13:13:10 GMT
Even though I think SDSN, quality wise, is right on par with Today, I wound up voting for six Today tracks to SDSN's three. I’m more in the Today! camp. And seeing these tracks side-by-side really underscores that for me. Particularly, the significant (massive?) drop in quality from side 2 of Today! to side 1 of SDSN. And then you got the spotty ending of SDSN, too. But Today! would do that to most every album, so… I agree that Today is the better album, with higher highs, but I think as an overall album experience, SDSN isn't too much of a drop off (I think I rated both a 9/10).
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 18, 2023 11:16:55 GMT
Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!) is 12 songs at only 26:42. It would've been nice if Brian finished - and added - "Guess I'm Dumb" and "Sherry She Needs To Me" to the album. How about 14 songs at around 32.00? Or, even eliminate "I'm Bugged At My Old Man"?
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Post by Kapitan on May 18, 2023 12:25:44 GMT
Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!) is 12 songs at only 26:42. It would've been nice if Brian finished - and added - "Guess I'm Dumb" and "Sherry She Needs To Me" to the album. How about 14 songs at around 32.00? Or, even eliminate "I'm Bugged At My Old Man"? I doubt you'd get many arguments about that!
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Post by B.E. on May 18, 2023 13:57:21 GMT
I’d gladly welcome a finished “Sherry She Needs Me”, but I honestly wouldn’t want “Guess I’m Dumb”. I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t like it as a “Beach Boys” song. Maybe Brian was right all along? As for “Bugged At My Ol’ Man”, I’d only be willing to part with it had it found another (timely) home, so either as a 1965 b-side or on Party!
That said, these changes wouldn’t have a significant effect (IMO). It’ll still be one of their better albums, but not one of their very, very best. As for the runtime, “short” albums aren’t a problem for me, long albums are.
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Post by Kapitan on May 18, 2023 14:06:54 GMT
...I honestly wouldn’t want “Guess I’m Dumb”. I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t like it as a “Beach Boys” song. Maybe Brian was right all along? As for “Bugged At My Ol’ Man”, I’d only be willing to part with it had it found another (timely) home, so either as a 1965 b-side or on Party!I definitely hear how "Guess I'm Dumb" could have been a Beach Boys song. I wonder what it is that disqualifies it in your mind? Re "Bugged," I think Party is the perfect place for it.
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Post by B.E. on May 18, 2023 14:16:46 GMT
Re “Guess I’m Dumb”, I couldn’t tell you. Maybe - in my rationalizing - I’m just being generous. It could just be that there’s something (fairly significant) about the song that I don’t like, but objectively I recognize that it’s a good song. Something has always irked me about the song (multiple somethings, I suspect). Edit: Kapitan, it could be a stylistic issue, to a degree. Maybe I’d be more receptive if Brian had revived it in the late 60s. Maybe it would have worked on 20/20?
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Post by kds on May 18, 2023 14:18:18 GMT
I’d gladly welcome a finished “Sherry She Needs Me”, but I honestly wouldn’t want “Guess I’m Dumb”. I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t like it as a “Beach Boys” song. Maybe Brian was right all along? As for “Bugged At My Ol’ Man”, I’d only be willing to part with it had it found another (timely) home, so either as a 1965 b-side or on Party!That said, these changes wouldn’t have a significant effect (IMO). It’ll still be one of their better albums, but not one of their very, very best. As for the runtime, “short” albums aren’t a problem for me, long albums are. I feel the same way. I'd much rather an album be too short than too long.
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Post by Kapitan on May 18, 2023 14:24:56 GMT
I think I'm probably a Goldilocks on that one: I'll be disappointed if an album is too short, but I'm definitely no fan of overly long albums. I want them just right.
That said, I think too long has been a bigger problem than too short for decades now.
I do understand the issue with too short: you don't want to feel ripped off. (Probably less an issue when people don't buy music anymore, anyway. You [likely] didn't pay for it anyway!) But a strong 30-minute album beats a 45-minute album with 30 strong minutes' worth...
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Post by B.E. on May 18, 2023 23:14:09 GMT
Dang, choosing 15 ain't bad...but 10!
1. California Girls 2. Please Let Me Wonder 3. Help Me, Rhonda 4. Kiss Me, Baby 5. She Knows Me Too Well 6. You're So Good To Me 7. I'm So Young 8. In The Back of My Mind 9. There's No Other (Like My Baby) 10. Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow
The toughest omissions were "When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)", "Good to My Baby", and "Let Him Run Wild".
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Post by Kapitan on May 18, 2023 23:31:53 GMT
Edit: Kapitan , it could be a stylistic issue, to a degree. Maybe I’d be more receptive if Brian had revived it in the late 60s. Maybe it would have worked on 20/20? Wow, I think it would be more out of place there. To me, it's definitely a 1965-66 Beach Boys (or Brian Wilson) track. Once you move past that, it seems like an odd fit to me.
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Post by B.E. on May 18, 2023 23:45:50 GMT
Edit: Kapitan , it could be a stylistic issue, to a degree. Maybe I’d be more receptive if Brian had revived it in the late 60s. Maybe it would have worked on 20/20? Wow, I think it would be more out of place there. To me, it's definitely a 1965-66 Beach Boys (or Brian Wilson) track. Once you move past that, it seems like an odd fit to me. Well, it would have been rerecorded in this parallel universe. Which would have inherently made it sound more contemporary (or 20/20-ish). I think it would have had a lot in common with "I Can Hear Music", for instance, but the hodgepodge nature of 20/20 would have helped it fit in, too. After a fresh listen (to the original version with Glen Campbell), I'm reminded how uber-'60s pop it sounds. It sounds more like a Neil Diamond track (think "Sweet Caroline" from 1969) than the Beach Boys. I'm not saying I can't hear it as a Beach Boys track, but it certainly doesn't scream Beach Boys either. I don't really like this general style, I think that's probably what it comes down to as much as anything else. Edit: Kapitan, I don't think it sounds like many (any?) of Brian's other songs. Maybe "Let Him Run Wild" a little bit? I don't know.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 19, 2023 0:29:07 GMT
I’d gladly welcome a finished “Sherry She Needs Me”, but I honestly wouldn’t want “Guess I’m Dumb”. I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t like it as a “Beach Boys” song. Maybe Brian was right all along? As for “Bugged At My Ol’ Man”, I’d only be willing to part with it had it found another (timely) home, so either as a 1965 b-side or on Party!That said, these changes wouldn’t have a significant effect (IMO). It’ll still be one of their better albums, but not one of their very, very best. As for the runtime, “short” albums aren’t a problem for me, long albums are. I'll make one more attempt before the thread wraps up. Of course I don't have to remind you how The Beach Boys were battling it out with The Beatles in 1964-1965. Yes, it was a battle of singles, but, to an extent, albums, too. The Beatles fired with A Hard Day's Night (13 songs @ 30:09) and Beatles For Sale (14 songs @ 33:42). Help! was right around the corner. The Beach Boys responded with Today! (12 songs @ 28:54) and then Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!). I know you're not necessarily a numbers/time guy when it comes to albums (though I know you don't like long ones), but please indulge me with this. You know how I like to present alternative albums. I came up with another one for Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!). May I ask you, B.E., just to scan it or even give it a listen. With this alternative album - adding "Sherry She Needs Me", "Guess I'm Dumb", and "Graduation Day", deleting "I'm Bugged At My Old Man", and re-sequencing - does it not improve the album...significantly? At least by one grade (a *, a number, a letter)?
The Beach Boys - Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Side 1 1. The Girl From New York City 2. Amusement Parks U.S.A. 3. Summer Means New Love 4. Then I Kissed Her 5. You're So Good To Me 6. Graduation Day (Studio Version) 7. Salt Lake City
Side 2 1. California Girls 2. Sherry She Needs Me 3. Help Me, Rhonda 4. Guess I'm Dumb (Brian Wilson lead vocal; see AI Version below) 5. Girl Don't Tell Me 6. Let Him Run Wild 7. And Your Dream Comes True
Length: 32:30
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Post by jk on May 20, 2023 9:28:02 GMT
Here are my choices with the odd comment:
"Help Me Ronda" (this mellow, cavernous version gets my vote), "Dance, Dance, Dance", "I’m So Young" (my favourite BB cover), "In The Back Of My Mind", "Salt Lake City" (either version, SDSN or Stack-o-Tracks), "Summer Means New Love", "And Your Dream Comes True", "There's No Other (Like My Baby)" (my one choice from Party!), "Barbara Ann" (the 45) and "The Little Girl I Once Knew".
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Post by B.E. on May 20, 2023 13:58:37 GMT
I’d gladly welcome a finished “Sherry She Needs Me”, but I honestly wouldn’t want “Guess I’m Dumb”. I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t like it as a “Beach Boys” song. Maybe Brian was right all along? As for “Bugged At My Ol’ Man”, I’d only be willing to part with it had it found another (timely) home, so either as a 1965 b-side or on Party!That said, these changes wouldn’t have a significant effect (IMO). It’ll still be one of their better albums, but not one of their very, very best. As for the runtime, “short” albums aren’t a problem for me, long albums are. I'll make one more attempt before the thread wraps up. Of course I don't have to remind you how The Beach Boys were battling it out with The Beatles in 1964-1965. Yes, it was a battle of singles, but, to an extent, albums, too. The Beatles fired with A Hard Day's Night (13 songs @ 30:09) and Beatles For Sale (14 songs @ 33:42). Help! was right around the corner. The Beach Boys responded with Today! (12 songs @ 28:54) and then Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!). I know you're not necessarily a numbers/time guy when it comes to albums (though I know you don't like long ones), but please indulge me with this. You know how I like to present alternative albums. I came up with another one for Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!). May I ask you, B.E., just to scan it or even give it a listen. With this alternative album - adding "Sherry She Needs Me", "Guess I'm Dumb", and "Graduation Day", deleting "I'm Bugged At My Old Man", and re-sequencing - does it not improve the album...significantly? At least by one grade (a *, a number, a letter)?The Beach Boys - Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!) Side 1 1. The Girl From New York City 2. Amusement Parks U.S.A. 3. Summer Means New Love 4. Then I Kissed Her 5. You're So Good To Me 6. Graduation Day (Studio Version) 7. Salt Lake City Side 2 1. California Girls 2. Sherry She Needs Me 3. Help Me, Rhonda 4. Guess I'm Dumb (Brian Wilson lead vocal; see AI Version below) 5. Girl Don't Tell Me 6. Let Him Run Wild 7. And Your Dream Comes True Length: 32:30 I think most people would agree with you, but I'm an odd duck on this one. I'm much higher on "Bugged At My Ol' Man" and much lower on "Guess I'm Dumb". But it's also the sort of thing where I don't think the songs we're adding or subtracting significantly improve the album - after all, the rest of the album remains exactly the same (which I consider to be made up of more 2nd tier than 1st tier material). In a way, I liken it to the Sunflower era. Sure, I like "Susie Cincinnati" more than "It's About Time", for example, but I still think the album is a 9/10 either way - one of their best albums. SDSN is an 8 in my book. Objectively, yeah, it's better the way you present it, but I'm not sure it pushes it to a 9 for me. Side 1 is still relatively weak (even though you did remove my least favorite song from Side 1 in "Girl Don't Tell Me" - again, odd duck). And placing the instrumental as the 3rd track is tricky, I'm not sure that would work. I do like the idea of including "Graduation Day", but I'd have it close Side 1. (And while I like the idea, I don't think it's a great enough track to significantly improve the album.) If I were to completely re-sequence SDSN like you have, with the aim of trying to make it appear as great as possible, I think you have to open side 1 with "California Girls" and open side 2 with "Help Me, Rhonda". Then there's "Sherry She Needs Me", which I don't think of as being on the same level as the hits, but I do like very much. Depending on how well Brian finished it, its inclusion would at least have me contemplating rounding up to a 9 or bumping it ahead of a couple other Beach Boys albums, but I don't think how I view the album would drastically change. All that said, I don't want it to get lost in the discussion: I like the album A LOT!
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Post by B.E. on May 21, 2023 12:51:02 GMT
Thanks for participating. We had 10 voters cast 96 votes.
Top 10 songs of 1965
Please Let Me Wonder (9 votes) Kiss Me, Baby (9 votes) California Girls (8 votes) When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) (7 votes) Dance, Dance, Dance (7 votes) She Knows Me Too Well (7 votes) Help Me, Rhonda (6 votes) You're So Good To Me (6 votes) Good To Me Baby (5 votes) The Little Girl I Once Knew (5 votes)
Today! received 52 votes vs. 34 for SDSN. Also, Party! received 5 votes vs. 5 for "The Little Girl I Once Knew".
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