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Post by kds on Jul 27, 2020 15:53:29 GMT
John Saxon, who has almost 2000 acting credits, also passed away at 83.
He's probably best known for his role as Lt. Thompson, the father of the main character Nancy, in the original Nightmare on Elm St. He also appeared in two of the sequels.
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2020 12:50:36 GMT
42 years ago today marked the beginning of an era. National Lampoon's Animal House was released. Not only is it a comedy classic, but it kickstarted a great run of movie comedies from the talents of Second City and SNL including, but not limited to, Meatballs, Caddyshack, Stripes, The Blues Brothers, Vacation, Ghostbusters, Back to School, The Great Outdoors, Groundhog Day, and countless others.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2020 13:01:27 GMT
Great movie (as goes without saying)!
It also set off a trend--or at least seems to me, looking backward, to have set off the trend--of teen or young-adult focused, sex-and-drug obsessed, wholly inappropriate, wholly hilarious comedies that almost certainly would not be made anymore in an era where such things are considered adjacent to genocide.
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2020 13:12:25 GMT
That's true, Animal House was probably the first "sex comedy." It's amusing to me whenever I see one of those article about some "woke" person who thinks they think for everybody saying how "problematic" Animal House, Porky's, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Revenge of the Nerds, or American Pie are. That style of comedy does seem to have fallen by the wayside over the last 15 years.
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bellbottoms
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 727
Likes: 201
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Post by bellbottoms on Jul 28, 2020 13:20:57 GMT
Watched the first episode of a docuseries about the Manson family called Helter Skelter last night. Some time is spent on the Dennis Wilson connection. Really interesting stuff, told from first person accounts of former Manson girls and other people who were around at the time.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2020 13:23:27 GMT
Yes, I was thinking American Pie (or that series / era, anyway) may have been nearing the end of them. Though to be honest, I thought the best of that genre were really late 70s through about mid 80s.
I won't pursue the argument in this thread, but it is odd to me that the young and the progressive/left are the more Puritanical people when it comes to comedy, movies, TV, etc., these days. These were the exact people who for decades and decades pushed for an "anything goes" approach. Now the concepts of "punching down" and "punching up" (meaning it's OK to make fun of anyone seen as above you in the hierarchy, but not below you) are so extreme that comedy has gotten enmeshed with intersectional politics. And that's just not funny at all! Comedy needs to be "anything goes." If it's too far, if it's not funny, well then people won't laugh, you won't sell tickets, and the problem solves itself.
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2020 13:28:19 GMT
Yes, I was thinking American Pie (or that series / era, anyway) may have been nearing the end of them. Though to be honest, I thought the best of that genre were really late 70s through about mid 80s.
I won't pursue the argument in this thread, but it is odd to me that the young and the progressive/left are the more Puritanical people when it comes to comedy, movies, TV, etc., these days. These were the exact people who for decades and decades pushed for an "anything goes" approach. Now the concepts of "punching down" and "punching up" (meaning it's OK to make fun of anyone seen as above you in the hierarchy, but not below you) are so extreme that comedy has gotten enmeshed with intersectional politics. And that's just not funny at all! Comedy needs to be "anything goes." If it's too far, if it's not funny, well then people won't laugh, you won't sell tickets, and the problem solves itself.
Yeah, American Pie was towards the end, as well as movies like Road Trip. Then, you have Old School and The 40 Year Old Virgin, which offered similar premises, but featured older horny guys. I couldn't agree more. It's kind of a similar thing that I alluded to with rock music. Much like rock music, comedy is becoming boring.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2020 13:46:13 GMT
Oooh, I forgot about those 00s movies, the Apatow universe and similar stuff. You're right, they aren't really quite the same as those earlier "screwball sex comedies," as these tended to be for adults. (Admittedly adults acting like juveniles, but that's the comedy.) So that does definitely stretch us through the '00s at least. Some of the Seth Rogen movies definitely fit into that approximate territory, too: Superbad, etc.
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2020 14:03:10 GMT
Oooh, I forgot about those 00s movies, the Apatow universe and similar stuff. You're right, they aren't really quite the same as those earlier "screwball sex comedies," as these tended to be for adults. (Admittedly adults acting like juveniles, but that's the comedy.) So that does definitely stretch us through the '00s at least. Some of the Seth Rogen movies definitely fit into that approximate territory, too: Superbad, etc. Somehow I'd forgotten about Superbad. That one had a bit of a twist (SPOILER) where the horny teen decides to not take advantage and get the easy score for the object of his affection, so it could be a more progressive take on the sex romp. You could probably say that about 40 Year Old Virgin too when Steve Carrell walks out on the Elizabeth Banks character to chase the girl he's fallen in love with. So, those 21st century sex comedies offer a dose of morality with the raunch.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2020 14:08:29 GMT
I think the main way these "sex comedy" movies can exist now is to have a female in the raunchy lead, which will be accepted/celebrated as empowering. For a male lead, I think those kinds of twists like you mentioned have become essential.
Hopefully we'll find a world in which we can do two things at once: don't be actually evil or asshole-ish (e.g. racist, sexist, homophobic and so on) on the one side, but on the other side to keep in mind that comedy isn't real life and using "bad things" in fiction is often useful both in making things funny, and in making positive points.
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2020 14:16:43 GMT
but on the other side to keep in mind that comedy isn't real life
I think this is something a lot of people lack the ability to see these days. It's fiction. These aren't real people. Seinfeld is one the most revered shows in TV history. And they even acknowledged in the finale that the four main characters are total assholes. One of my favorite shows over the last 20 years is The Office (US). In real life, almost every character on that show would've been terminated for one reason or another. It's entertainment. If people look at fiction as real life, of course they won't enjoy it. Maybe reality based TV has blurred the lines too much.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2020 14:28:46 GMT
Agreed. To comment further:
Watching people who aren't real do or believe bad things does not necessarily promote those bad things, or inspire people to do or believe those bad things. In fact, a great benefit of fiction is that it allows people to explore reality without experiencing it. You can relate to other people in good ways, but also in bad ones. That's the point. For example, if you read Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, you can be inside the head of the murderer-protagonist Raskolnikov ... and, if you're doing it right, conclude that even some kind of "good murder" is in fact not good.
Great art lets us experience complex and troubling realities without them being our own realities.
Sometimes that's in the form of serious dramas, like C&P mentioned above. But sometimes it's in screwball comedies. The format doesn't really matter, and each has its benefits and drawbacks.
Our puritanical modern world seems to miss that point entirely, and instead is (in my opinion) VERY childish about it by assuming the inclusion of something "problematic" is encouraging that thing. Sometimes it really is encouraging those things, in which case I'd argue you're probably not dealing with great art. (I think it's almost an inherent part of great art that it is encouraging illumination and uplifting of humanity in some way, as opposed to advocating wanton violence, for example.) The criticism is superficial. It is (I'll use the word again) a childish approach of just seeing the "bad thing" and pointing at it, shouting "bad thing!" with no sense of perspective, purpose, etc.
The Seinfeld example is perfect. Of course all four main characters are terrible people. No one in their right mind would want to be like any of them. But they're great vehicles for comedy, pointing out everyone's hypocrisies, bringing our worst thoughts and tendencies into the open and making us acknowledge them ... all while making us laugh. That's what comedy is for, and censoring (officially or otherwise) that is a huge mistake.
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2020 15:02:39 GMT
That's become the way of the world lately, shouting to the rooftops "THAT'S BAD" with paying zero attention to subtext. One of my favorite examples is Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles. It's easy to watch that movie and get offended by the use of racial slurs among other things. But, in reality, the movie is pure satire, and in a statement against racism. Same with All in the Family, despite the fact that in that case, some racists did cheer Archie Bunker as if he was a folk hero.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2020 15:13:57 GMT
Great examples, with Blazing Saddles (for example) being co-written by Richard Pryor, one of the most brilliant commentators on race & racism in the comedy of the era.
Re Archie Bunker, the sad reality is you are always going to get some people--and I'm sorry, but these are stupid people--who miss the real point and reinforce their worst thoughts. But guess what? Not telling those stories via All In The Family wouldn't have prevented them from being racists or morons; while telling them probably did some good in helping people think through racial and social issues and did move the needle against racism.
Really you just can't control people's thoughts via censorship (official or unofficial). It's better to help people wrestle with their thoughts and improve, even if it's from a 2 to a 3 on the "Enlightenment Scale," than it is to yell at them and call them names and forbid them to say "naughty things," which just makes people seek out the "naughty things," or reinforces their wrongheaded views (moving them from a 2 to a 1 on the Enlightenment Scale).
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2020 15:20:52 GMT
Great examples, with Blazing Saddles (for example) being co-written by Richard Pryor, one of the most brilliant commentators on race & racism in the comedy of the era.
Re Archie Bunker, the sad reality is you are always going to get some people--and I'm sorry, but these are stupid people--who miss the real point and reinforce their worst thoughts. But guess what? Not telling those stories via All In The Family wouldn't have prevented them from being racists or morons; while telling them probably did some good in helping people think through racial and social issues and did move the needle against racism.
Really you just can't control people's thoughts via censorship (official or unofficial). It's better to help people wrestle with their thoughts and improve, even if it's from a 2 to a 3 on the "Enlightenment Scale," than it is to yell at them and call them names and forbid them to say "naughty things," which just makes people seek out the "naughty things," or reinforces their wrongheaded views (moving them from a 2 to a 1 on the Enlightenment Scale). That's 100% true. The other ability a lot of this overly offended woke squads seemingly are not born with is the ability to change the channel. There are limitless entertainment options out there, so if I see something I find not to my liking, I just don't watch.
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