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Post by Kapitan on Jan 28, 2022 15:44:45 GMT
That said, if I had to extol the virtues of just one song on Pet Sounds, that song would be "I'm Waiting For The Day". Luckily I know of a message board where you could do just that.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 28, 2022 20:19:36 GMT
One of my favorite Beach Boys' albums - arrangements-wise - is 15 Big Ones. While the vocals, songwriting, and especially choice of songs on that album have a lot to be desired, I think Brian Wilson's arrangements on all of the songs are outstanding. I've mentioned in other threads, including on other forums, that I consider 15 Big Ones to be Brian Wilson's "Phil Spector album", not just because he recorded two of Spector's songs for the album, but because of the arrangements. The musicians on 15 Big Ones did include Hal Blaine, Jerry Cole, Steve Douglas, Gene Estes, Carl Fortina, Jay Migliori, Ray Pohlman, Lyle Ritz, Tommy Tedesco, Julius Wechter, the Sid Sharp Strings, and others. Again, while some songs on 15 Big Ones might be considered weak or subpar, I still enjoy picking out Brian's arrangements and how he interpreted those songs, especially the oldies. On a side note, I think that Brian's songwritring, producing, and arranging suffered when he stopped working extensively with The Wrecking Crew. I wish he would've continued his working relationship with them, not only with his Beach Boys' recordings, but also with his solo career.
"Had To Phone Ya" is a good example of Brian's excellent arranging. He still had "it". A lot of the "Had To Phone Ya" track is lost in the final mix on 15 Big Ones, but it is impressive when you hear the instrumental track. So many sounds. Strings, horns, woodwinds...It's so much fun to explore. It does have that "how did he come up with that" feel:
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Post by B.E. on Jan 29, 2022 1:10:18 GMT
I'd like to explain a little for anyone not really familiar with the meaning of that term. It's not a scary, music-nerd thing, necessarily. (I mean, we can get nerdy about it, but you don't have to.) Historically, the term really meant a reworking of the original composition, but in pop music it even refers to the original recording.
Maybe the easiest way to understand it is with this Beach Boysesque fictional example: the composition of the song is done by Brian Wilson at a piano. He decides how to structure it, what the chords are, what the melody does, maybe even the harmonies. The arrangement is how it is realized: is there a drummer on a trap set, or are there percussionists on timpani and sleigh bells? Is there an electric bass, a standup bass, both? Might he make horn or woodwind parts, and if so, are they doubling some vocal line? Or maybe doing a counter melody? Perhaps they play a version of the melody between vocal lines, as a callback.
These sorts of things go into the original arrangement. And of course covers of songs often rearrange them: someone might do an acoustic guitar-and-voice version of "God Only Knows," which can't help but be a new arrangement, considering the original has all those other instruments and voices. You might also decide to put a different section of the song up-front, or repeat something, or make any other changes. It's the same song, just rearranged.
Hopefully that makes sense to anyone not really familiar with the term. Would you agree that 'arrangements' are often split into two for the purposes of discussion: 'instrumentation' and 'vocal arrangements'? And further that 'production' includes everything you just said about arrangements but also includes more technical things from mic placement to reverb, EQ, and mixing? I've sometimes gotten confused about what exactly people are referring to in this area.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2022 1:40:52 GMT
Great questions, and because I'm just one schmuck (who doesn't work in the music business), I want to be clear that my takes on that are very much open to others' opinions, corrections, etc.
As for splitting vocal and instrumental arrangements, I'd just say that sure, you could differentiate ... but I'm not sure whether or why you have to. I think the concept remains the same. A song (and if we're talking pop song, let's say vocal with melody and at least implied chords) is something to be arranged, which could remain just a vocal melody over complex instrumental arrangement, could become a complex vocal arrangement over basic chordal instrumental backing, or anywhere in between.
As for defining a producer, that is a big point of interest for me, actually. I think producer is a very, very broad term that can mean any number of things. It can mean funder. It can mean organizer (e.g., the person booking the facilities, equipment, musicians). It can mean engineer. It can mean artistic director. It can mean arranger. It can mean cowriter. It can mean any combination of things. Some producers are more prominent than the artists they produce; others try to be transparent.
The things you noted about mic placement, EQ, etc., that would be more about engineering (or producing), but not really arranging.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 29, 2022 1:57:41 GMT
OK, it appears we are on the same page. Like I alluded to, at times I've been confused regarding usage of these terms so I'm glad to get some confirmation!
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Post by joshilynhoisington on Jan 29, 2022 3:25:05 GMT
Composer: Conceives of the Music Arranger/Orchestrator: Translates the Composer's ideas into concrete instructions for musicians to play. Musician: Plays the Music Engineer: Records the Music Producer: Responsible for delivering releasable final product to the label (or whatever the means of distribution is)
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2022 11:51:16 GMT
Composer: Conceives of the Music Arranger/Orchestrator: Translates the Composer's ideas into concrete instructions for musicians to play. Musician: Plays the Music Engineer: Records the Music Producer: Responsible for delivering releasable final product to the label (or whatever the means of distribution is) Surely you'd agree, though, that in popular music over the past 50 years or so, the role of producer can (and often does) include as many as all four of the items you listed above it? I don't mean it has to, but it often does. Phil Spector, or in a more modern example, Dave Fridmann, ends up getting certain sounds that have more to do with arrangement, engineering, or mixing despite generally being credited as producer.
I think there is just swath of territory covered under a producer's possible role: "delivering releasable final product" can mean anything from writing to choosing to arranging songs, to booking studios, to finding someone to cover for the passed-out lead guitarist's solo, to getting a specific drum sound.
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Post by joshilynhoisington on Jan 29, 2022 16:40:27 GMT
Composer: Conceives of the Music Arranger/Orchestrator: Translates the Composer's ideas into concrete instructions for musicians to play. Musician: Plays the Music Engineer: Records the Music Producer: Responsible for delivering releasable final product to the label (or whatever the means of distribution is) Surely you'd agree, though, that in popular music over the past 50 years or so, the role of producer can (and often does) include as many as all four of the items you listed above it? I don't mean it has to, but it often does. Phil Spector, or in a more modern example, Dave Fridmann, ends up getting certain sounds that have more to do with arrangement, engineering, or mixing despite generally being credited as producer.
I think there is just swath of territory covered under a producer's possible role: "delivering releasable final product" can mean anything from writing to choosing to arranging songs, to booking studios, to finding someone to cover for the passed-out lead guitarist's solo, to getting a specific drum sound.
Yes, I think that "being responsible for delivering releasable product" means that there is potential for a producer to get their hands dirty in all phases of the process. It's not unlike being retail manager. Ultimately, the shelves need to be stocked and tidied, and customers need to be helped -- sometimes you do it yourself, sometimes you delegate.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2022 16:47:18 GMT
The other jobs are relatively discrete, distinct. But producer is such a vague, or at high-level, job description that it can mean very different things.
I think the obvious musical influence that many star producers have had on albums they produced that we end up using "production" as shorthand for some combination of arrangements, engineering, mixing, and more, even though sometimes a producer might not have anything to do with those things. Nobody talks about liking Producer X's work because she runs an efficient ship, getting everything done on time and on budget. But that's probably more directly what a producer would be expected to accomplish.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 29, 2022 17:03:53 GMT
I think the obvious musical influence that many star producers have had on albums they produced that we end up using "production" as shorthand for some combination of arrangements, engineering, mixing, and more, even though sometimes a producer might not have anything to do with those things. Nobody talks about liking Producer X's work because she runs an efficient ship, getting everything done on time and on budget. But that's probably more directly what a producer would be expected to accomplish.
Yeah, that's where I was coming from. Just clarifying that that's how posters tend to use the term on music forums (particularly Beach Boys forums). I think Joshilyn's breakdown was spot-on, though, too.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2022 17:38:08 GMT
I think the obvious musical influence that many star producers have had on albums they produced that we end up using "production" as shorthand for some combination of arrangements, engineering, mixing, and more, even though sometimes a producer might not have anything to do with those things. Nobody talks about liking Producer X's work because she runs an efficient ship, getting everything done on time and on budget. But that's probably more directly what a producer would be expected to accomplish.
Yeah, that's where I was coming from. Just clarifying that that's how posters tend to use the term on music forums (particularly Beach Boys forums). I think Joshilyn's breakdown was spot-on, though, too. I think in the end, it becomes more discernible which producers do have a significant role in those things based on the fruits of their labor. If Producer X works with four different groups and the results all have something in common with one another, even maybe that any one of those groups' other work doesn't necessarily share with the example, that's when we can say the producer is influencing it.
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
Posts: 234
Likes: 181
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Post by sockit on Jan 29, 2022 20:08:02 GMT
When I think of "arrangement" one of the first songs that comes to my mind is "Here Today". In reality, it's not a very complicated song, but the arrangement makes it sound quite complex, and even a bit surreal in spots. The upper-octave bass, the sax, the keyboards, the organ, the throbbing straight-4 percussion....man, what a truly exciting array of instruments weaving their way around each other throughout the song!
And the way the song is structured--again, it's simple verse/chorus, etc--things like the breakdowns after the choruses, with that little keyboard riff...and then the long and winding instrumental middle part...make this an incredible track among other incredible tracks!
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Post by joshilynhoisington on Jan 29, 2022 20:43:16 GMT
When I think of "arrangement" one of the first songs that comes to my mind is "Here Today". In reality, it's not a very complicated song, but the arrangement makes it sound quite complex, and even a bit surreal in spots. The upper-octave bass, the sax, the keyboards, the organ, the throbbing straight-4 percussion....man, what a truly exciting array of instruments weaving their way around each other throughout the song! And the way the song is structured--again, it's simple verse/chorus, etc--things like the breakdowns after the choruses, with that little keyboard riff...and then the long and winding instrumental middle part...make this an incredible track among other incredible tracks! Yeah, I think that's a good example of a so-so song that has been arranged such that it minimizes its shortcomings and highlights its strengths. The dual-bass action in particular is one of Brian's all-time masterstrokes. The sparing use of the trombones adds a bit of interesting color, and Knechtel's dual-manual organ technique makes the rhythm a bit different than it could have been. It's interesting, on the other hand, that this is the only track on Pet Sounds that has a couple of guitars strumming chords as their contribution -- otherwise there is very limited use of the guitar as a rhythm instrument on the album.
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
Posts: 234
Likes: 181
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Post by sockit on Jan 29, 2022 20:58:02 GMT
When I think of "arrangement" one of the first songs that comes to my mind is "Here Today". In reality, it's not a very complicated song, but the arrangement makes it sound quite complex, and even a bit surreal in spots. The upper-octave bass, the sax, the keyboards, the organ, the throbbing straight-4 percussion....man, what a truly exciting array of instruments weaving their way around each other throughout the song! And the way the song is structured--again, it's simple verse/chorus, etc--things like the breakdowns after the choruses, with that little keyboard riff...and then the long and winding instrumental middle part...make this an incredible track among other incredible tracks! It's interesting, on the other hand, that this is the only track on Pet Sounds that has a couple of guitars strumming chords as their contribution -- otherwise there is very limited use of the guitar as a rhythm instrument on the album. That's an interesting point. That may be a large part of the reason that I find it difficult to classify this as a "rock song", even though it is mostly formatted as one.
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Post by jk on Jan 30, 2022 11:42:37 GMT
When I think of "arrangement" one of the first songs that comes to my mind is "Here Today". In reality, it's not a very complicated song, but the arrangement makes it sound quite complex, and even a bit surreal in spots. The upper-octave bass, the sax, the keyboards, the organ, the throbbing straight-4 percussion....man, what a truly exciting array of instruments weaving their way around each other throughout the song! And the way the song is structured--again, it's simple verse/chorus, etc--things like the breakdowns after the choruses, with that little keyboard riff...and then the long and winding instrumental middle part...make this an incredible track among other incredible tracks! Yeah, I think that's a good example of a so-so song that has been arranged such that it minimizes its shortcomings and highlights its strengths. The dual-bass action in particular is one of Brian's all-time masterstrokes. The sparing use of the trombones adds a bit of interesting color, and Knechtel's dual-manual organ technique makes the rhythm a bit different than it could have been. It's interesting, on the other hand, that this is the only track on Pet Sounds that has a couple of guitars strumming chords as their contribution -- otherwise there is very limited use of the guitar as a rhythm instrument on the album. When I bought the album in '67, and indeed until buying the mono-stereo twofer, I could have sworn that that downward smear at the end of the chorus was a gong! I also thought that the bass harmonica solo in "IKTAA" was Mike playing a baritone sax! Information was scant in those days.
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