|
Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2022 16:41:14 GMT
The topic has come up occasionally over the years, including in our recent discussion of the singles from The Beach Boys. I think it is well summed up by this and this.
What I wanted to raise is this question: has the nostalgic route generally proven to be more successful or less successful for the Beach Boys than progressing along whatever other creative paths they took over the years?
Looking back at some of those songs, I think you could argue that the first such single was "Do It Again," which in the US was pretty successful, but not abnormally so for the time: at #20, it easily bested "Friends" at #47, but didn't quite match "Darlin" at #19. It was a #1 in the UK, but that was at a time when six consecutive singles were Top 30, four of which were #11, 8, 1, and this one at 1.
The next two singles were both covers of older songs, with mixed results: "Bluebirds Over the Mountain" was a miss, but "I Can Hear Music" was a modest hit.
Then we hit a relatively progressive era, and the singles performed pretty poorly. The next nostalgic single could be argued to be "California Saga: California," which frankly did not set the world on fire. Its reputation has long-since exceeded its original performance at #84.
"Rock and Roll Music" and "It's OK" were both hits, "Peggy Sue" charted at #59 after a few new songs did not. We jump ahead to 1981 before there is any real success, and it's with nostalgia: the medley and "Come Go With Me." But "Oh Darlin" from KTSA failed to chart at all despite its throwback sound. "Getcha Back" hits, "California Dreamin" not so much, "Wipeout" and "Kokomo" do (neither really a throwback, though "Wipeout" is kind of half and half...).
Anyway, point being: I don't know that we can look back and say that when they went with the throwback, obviously nostalgic songs, that they got hits out of them. But at the same time, I don't think we can say the opposite. They seem to have had more success with that type of song than new ones by the 70s and beyond, but it wasn't a surefire formula.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by kds on Jan 25, 2022 17:37:02 GMT
The biggest exception to me was probably Good Vibrations. It was a huge hit, and very progressive. Granted, they were still pretty young, but Do It Again was only a couple years away at the time.
I also feel like, particularly in the States, when it comes to The Beach Boys, there was a certain expectation, one that still exists today, of sun drenched fun in the sun song, with some songs about cars in the mix. Unfortunately, this meant that, more than any of their peers (The Beatles, Stones, Who, etc etc), in the eyes of many record buyers, The Beach Boys were not "allowed" to progress.
So leaning into that nostalgia curve proved to be great for the band commercially. Instead of playing college halls, they started playing bigger venues.
You and I brought up Kokomo in this and the singles thread. It's not really a throwback per se, but it does touch on that summertime vibe.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2022 17:43:49 GMT
You know what's interesting? The earlier singles that could be described as nostalgic--but the first waves of that--were bigger hits in the UK than here.
Do It Again 20 / 1 Bluebirds 61 / 33 I Can Hear Music 24 / 10 Cottonfields 105 / 5 California 84 / 37
But from then on, it seems to be the opposite. Both originals ("It's OK") and covers ("Peggy Sue," "Come Go With Me") failed to chart at all in the UK! Some of the others did, but not as high as in the US.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Jan 25, 2022 17:48:29 GMT
You know what's interesting? The earlier singles that could be described as nostalgic--but the first waves of that--were bigger hits in the UK than here.
Do It Again 20 / 1 Bluebirds 61 / 33 I Can Hear Music 24 / 10 Cottonfields 105 / 5 California 84 / 37
But from then on, it seems to be the opposite. Both originals ("It's OK") and covers ("Peggy Sue," "Come Go With Me") failed to chart at all in the UK! Some of the others did, but not as high as in the US.
I think UK fans bought into the 66-73 era of The Beach Boys more than US fans, which is probably why Mike's Beach Boys have included more songs from that era in their UK sets in the last decade or so. Perhaps, those same UK fans turned their noses up at the Boys when they went full on nostalgia in 1976.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2022 18:00:18 GMT
I was wondering that: is it that UK fans just liked the Beach Boys in general more during that era, including their nostalgic attempts? Or did they like the Beach Boys' nostalgic attempts more?
I'm not sure the evidence is clear. After all, check out the chart performance of these singles in the 70s:
ASMTYD - na Cottonfields - 5 Slip On Through - na Tears in the Morning - na Cool Cool Water - na Long Promised Road - na Surf's Up - na Mess of Help - na Marcella - na
So they weren't exactly tearing up the charts in the UK in that era either.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 25, 2022 19:31:41 GMT
The topic has come up occasionally over the years, including in our recent discussion of the singles from The Beach Boys. I think it is well summed up by this and this.
What I wanted to raise is this question: has the nostalgic route generally proven to be more successful or less successful for the Beach Boys than progressing along whatever other creative paths they took over the years?
Thoughts?
For me, in my opinion, it's overwhelmingly nostalgic over progressive.
I have this theory that music fans "use" groups or artists. People use them to enjoy a certain type of music, a certain type of music that only they (the musician/artist) can provide. Music fans want Pink Floyd for their sound, Lynyrd Skynyrd for what they offer, Madonna for what she brings, Black Sabbath for what they project, and on and on. You get the point. I know fans of The Beach Boys and especially Brian Wilson don't like to admit it, but I think music fans liked them for overwhelmingly one type of music, and that is their fun in the sun, good-timey, melodic, harmony-driven, "summer-y" music. Brian specifically tried - and mostly failed IMO - to try something new with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. It was mostly the diehards buying those records and keeping the band afloat. Brian gave up (for several reasons) and said "See ya". Then the band made a very good effort to try new music, or music that they were truly behind (they weren't faking it) with 20/20 through Holland. Other than a single or two, every single bombed. Yes, Surf's Up hit No. 29 and Holland reached No. 36, but on a whole, those albums were disappointing for the group. I'm not really sure how they fared critically, but I think a few of them were mostly ignored.
We all know which singles were successful in the 70s and 80s - all nostalgic. Actually, look at all of The Beach Boys' singles. How many of the truly artistic, progressive ones were successful? Other than "Good Vibrations", how about...none? I think "Heroes And Villains" could be considered the beginning of the trend for the group, an unfortunate trend. Now, look at the comps. Do you remember how Endless Summer and Spirit Of America were overwhelming successes, while Reprise's comps, released at the same time, sold significantly less. Look at the later comps. Sounds Of Summer sold like crazy; none of the other ones sold at all.
Back to those examples of other groups I listed above. Every - EVERY! - artist/group/singer goes through the same thing. They establish themselves with their signature "sound", then try to change, try to grow, and try to basically continue in the business. They usually find themselves fighting the system, fighting the fans (who don't want change), and finally fighting among themselves, usually resulting in disbanding or quitting. There are very few examples of artists who successfully change. I dare you to list five.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Jan 25, 2022 19:48:56 GMT
Sheriff, I think that's a good point when it comes to music fans and what they expect from their favorite bands.
But, I do think bands have been allowed to "evolve" more than The Beach Boys. I think evolve is probably a better word than change, because most bands who trying to make a huge change in their sound wind of reverting back to what they're known for (U2 comes to mind). But, I think bands like Floyd, The Who, Metallica, Chicago, Genesis, etc were able to evolve, even if some fans cling to their favorite versions of those bands.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2022 19:49:01 GMT
I differ from that in a couple of ways.
One, I think their initial success was progressive. They weren't backward-facing at all, they were full speed ahead making new music. Sure, it used old touchpoints like Chuck Berry, the Four Freshmen, etc., but it was a new combination, a new thing. So while you say maybe only "Good Vibrations" was a hit among progressive songs, I'd say damn near everything they did (well, ok, maybe just a lot) up through "Good Vibrations" was progressive. It's just that--just like in politics I guess--today's progressive becomes tomorrow's conservative or nostalgia.
But where I agree is, that's what set their sound, their style, and to some degree pigeonholed what their audiences wanted from them--especially once that initial audience grew up and was looking back fondly. That's the rub, and I think we all agree on that more or less, as we've referenced it many times: a band/artist evolves and their fans love it ... until it goes too far and they don't. Then you're on the outs, unless or until you have that inevitable comeback where you win back your old fans by doin' it just like the old days... And that is the hard decision for every artist/band, since it means in some sense giving up or giving in on your artistic muse and instead giving up yourself for your fans' preference (which is usually more commercially rewarding and critically damning).
The second place I differ is ... well, honestly I forgot. The above babbling distracted me!
|
|
|
Post by kds on Jan 25, 2022 19:59:15 GMT
Well, if they weren't progressive at the beginning, there'd be nothing about which to be nostalgic.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 25, 2022 20:03:14 GMT
Yes, you could consider Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys progressing from 1962-1966. Of course. Absolutely. However, while The Beach Boys' first three "surfin'" albums have a distinctive sound/style, the longer I listen, or the longer I live (yikes!), I'm starting to view most of The Beach Boys' music from Shut Down Vol. 2 through Pet Sounds as...of the same genre. I know what you're thinking - Sheriff has finally lost it. He's gone off the deep end. But, I think the similarities in the 1964-66 music gives the listener a certain like (meaning they like it), a certain "feeling", even a certain sameness. Yes, the arrangements and the instrumentation varied and changed, but the voices and the overwhelming vocal arrangements remained the same. And, that goes a long way with the music and the fans appreciation of it. I really think most fans lump that 1964-66 period together, even with Pet Sounds included. I can see the same fans who dig "This Car Of Mine" liking "I'm Waiting For The Day", too. Is "Caroline No" viewed - or appreciated - much differently than "The Lonely Sea" by most music fans?
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2022 20:07:22 GMT
Howevr, while The Beach Boys' first three "surfin'" albums have a distinctive sound/style, the longer I listen, or the longer I live (yikes!), I'm starting to view most of The Beach Boys' music from Shut Down Vol. 2 through Pet Sounds as...of the same genre. I know what you're thinking - Sheriff has finally lost it. He's gone off the deep end. No comment on the latter.
But on the former, I see what you're saying. I don't quite agree, but I do think they were refining, perfecting, progressing on what were more primitive ideas (for lack of a better word). I mean, the seeds of what I consider their peak were audible in those first albums. But that doesn't make those first ones just as good, or make it all of a piece with the later ones. Just a different point on the same trajectory.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 25, 2022 20:30:26 GMT
Howevr, while The Beach Boys' first three "surfin'" albums have a distinctive sound/style, the longer I listen, or the longer I live (yikes!), I'm starting to view most of The Beach Boys' music from Shut Down Vol. 2 through Pet Sounds as...of the same genre. I know what you're thinking - Sheriff has finally lost it. He's gone off the deep end. No comment on the latter.
But on the former, I see what you're saying. I don't quite agree, but I do think they were refining, perfecting, progressing on what were more primitive ideas (for lack of a better word). I mean, the seeds of what I consider their peak were audible in those first albums. But that doesn't make those first ones just as good, or make it all of a piece with the later ones. Just a different point on the same trajectory.
But, again, I'm going by what I think THE FANS like or want. And, I really think most music fans - not Beach Boys' knowledgable or diehards - lump Pet Sounds (especially the singles from that album) and "Good Vibrations" in with the earlier stuff. I think the line of demarcation starts with Smiley Smile.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2022 20:38:11 GMT
I agree with you there. And I do think most "normal" fans are exactly in that boat you're talking about.
But that's also why I don't think it makes sense to think about anything up through that point as nostalgic (to the earlier point). It's only later, like "Do It Again" in 1968, that there is an "old days" to call back, even though in this case, the old days were like two years ago!
|
|
|
Post by kds on Jan 25, 2022 20:41:37 GMT
No comment on the latter.
But on the former, I see what you're saying. I don't quite agree, but I do think they were refining, perfecting, progressing on what were more primitive ideas (for lack of a better word). I mean, the seeds of what I consider their peak were audible in those first albums. But that doesn't make those first ones just as good, or make it all of a piece with the later ones. Just a different point on the same trajectory.
But, again, I'm going by what I think THE FANS like or want. And, I really think most music fans - not Beach Boys' knowledgable or diehards - lump Pet Sounds (especially the singles from that album) and "Good Vibrations" in with the earlier stuff. I think the line of demarcation starts with Smiley Smile. I'd agree with that, and honestly, while the lyrical themes may have changed, I think there's a bit of a natural progression from All Summer Long to Pet Sounds, and then Smiley Smile is a bit of hard left.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 25, 2022 20:44:04 GMT
I agree with you there. And I do think most "normal" fans are exactly in that boat you're talking about.
But that's also why I don't think it makes sense to think about anything up through that point as nostalgic (to the earlier point). It's only later, like "Do It Again" in 1968, that there is an "old days" to call back, even though in this case, the old days were like two years ago!
I'm not really sure what point you're making, and maybe I'm not making my point clear. Of course the 1962-66 period could not be considered nostalgic...while it was occurring, while it was happening. But, yes, as little as two years down the road (with "Do It Again"), it could be enough time to turn that earlier period into nostalgia. Two years seems like nothing now, but a lot went down in that ensuing late 1966-68 period with Brian and the group and the group's sound.
|
|