|
Post by lonelysummer on Jan 6, 2022 5:04:12 GMT
Yesterday while thinking about what books to recommend to zooeyhall , I got sidetracked reading a December 1982 interview with Carl Wilson by Gregory Hines for Musician magazine, as reprinted in a longer form in the book "Back to the Beach." It is a long interview that literally walks through the band's entire career up to that point.
The discussion of his decision to try a solo career is interesting. First, he says he never even considered it until 1979. With more or less everyone else having considered or tried a solo career by that time, it's amazing he was so slow to warm to the idea. "I'd been offered the idea, but I never considered it," he said. "I thought more of producing other people." (p. 254)
What changed his mind, he says, was that he wanted to keep making new music, while "the guys in the band decided not to record and were playing the same old songs, every night. I got itchy. I remember the last two weeks of the summer tour of '79, I was so bored I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. It was horrible to go on sometimes, because there was nothing in it. That was the first time that had ever happened with the group." (ibid.)
He had already released and was touring behind his solo album when, in 1981, he released the somewhat famous statement about his conditions for returning to the Beach Boys: - make a record of new songs - rehearse thoroughly before each tour - no more Vegas/Tahoe style multi-night resort shows
In spring 1982, he was approached and agreed to do some shows in April. He said he thought the band needed some work, but they agreed to rehearse, and predicted that the 1983 tour would be "a lot more rehearsals, new faces, new songs, different venues ... " (p. 256)
I was looking at some of those 1983 shows. There are still what appear to be casinos/resorts among the venues, along with civic centers, colleges, etc. The set lists at setlist.fm (very incomplete, most shows in that era do not have set lists published) include a pair of Carl's solo songs and a couple of songs that I am guessing were newly re-added to the sets, such as "Sail On, Sailor," "Heroes and Villains," and "Disney Girls," but I'm guessing on that. I haven't compared to 1981 set lists. [EDIT - I have looked at a few 1981 set lists now. While I haven't come across H&V among those shows, SOS is in most of them. And while I haven't seen DG either, the '81 sets all did have "I Write the Songs," so it seems that was just swapping one Bruce song for another. Otherwise, the set lists seem pretty similar, frankly. Except the addition of a pair of Carl songs.]
But there are no new songs added. And of course, the Beach Boys did not go back into the studio to record a new album for several more years.
Point being ... did Carl just cave in? It doesn't seem like he held to his demands. Had he not returned to the group, I wonder how things might have gone differently.
I don't think he caved in. One of his demands had been the band seriously rehearse before each tour, which it appears they did. It's true the band did not seriously attempt new recordings until the Steve Levine sessions in 1984; I think part of that was Brian being back with Landy, and everyone wanting him to be fully involved in a new album. Of course, the ideal scenario would have been Brian back in the producers chair; in fact, Carl pretty much admits this in the interview. "We could probably make a real strong commercial record with another producer, but if you're talking Good Vibrations class, it's gotta be Brian with us". So we got a good, solid commercial record, and that was pretty much the last time everybody worked together on a full album. In leu of a new album, the group added several songs from Carl's solo albums - "Heaven", "Rockin' All Over the World", "What You Do to Me". Maybe they should have worked in a few lesser known songs from the catalog. I guess I'm not sure what qualifies as lesser known. "The Warmth of the Sun"? "You're So Good to Me"? And meanwhile you've got all the big hits to try to get in to what was typically a 90 minute show. I don't recall any acts I saw back then doing 3 hour shows. I think the 1985 album was Carl's last stand with the group. His voice is all over that album, he co-wrote three of the songs, that album has his stamp on it more than anyone else's. After that, he stepped into the background again. I don't know why, I think maybe he was just burned out on trying to push the group into a more modern or contemporary sound. Maybe he had dried up as a writer. From 1986 on, it sure seems like it became Mike's band. He was the one member continuing to write new songs for the group, and of course the success of "Kokomo" just confirmed to Mike that he was the one in the band that knew how to make a hit record. Summer in Paradise was Mike's baby; Carl and Al were only minimally involved in it. Carl saved his songs for the Like a Brother project. I suspect that if he had lived, this would have been the pattern going forward - the group doing more Mike-led SIP and S&S type projects, and Carl saving his songs for collaborations with other artists.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Jan 20, 2022 13:27:40 GMT
The discussion in the Questions thread about how the band themselves might have been less negative about the 80s and 90s led to a question for me, based on both Sheriff John Stone and bellesofparisstan comments: did Carl ever speak publicly about his solo career after the fact, once he'd returned?
I had suggested he caved when he returned. ( lonelysummer disagreed) I think SJS feels similarly to me, at least in some respect, as he'd said he thought Carl returned "with his tail between his legs."
Off the top of my head, I don't recall a post-return interview in which Carl spoke about that solo sojourn and his return, but if anyone has one handy to reference, I'd sure like to read/listen/watch. Not that I expect he would have said, "wow, that was a dumb idea--I really failed!" Nothing like that. But I am curious as to how he put it.
|
|
Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 520
Likes: 532
|
Post by Emdeeh on Jan 20, 2022 15:09:43 GMT
I think Carl was more concerned about what was happening with his brothers at the time of his return than we may realize.
As for his brief solo career, I think touring in front of his own band made him a stronger onstage performer when he returned to the BBs.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Feb 24, 2022 1:53:31 GMT
Just listened to this interview with Carl circa late 1981 and it reminded me of this thread. Nothing groundbreaking, but in talking about his debut solo album Carl states that Myrna "wrote the lyrics to all the songs and some melody".
And not quite as on-topic, but it really comes across in this interview that Carl left the group rather abruptly because they weren't interested in recording the follow-up to KTSA in the 2nd half of 1980. He really wanted the group to write and record, and he even mentioned wanting to practice and improve his abilities as a vocalist. He was hoping that making his solo album might inspire the group to get back into the studio. Unfortunately, the Beach Boys just didn't have it in them for another 3-4 years or so.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Feb 24, 2022 14:54:22 GMT
And not quite as on-topic, but it really comes across in this interview that Carl left the group rather abruptly because they weren't interested in recording the follow-up to KTSA in the 2nd half of 1980. He really wanted the group to write and record, and he even mentioned wanting to practice and improve his abilities as a vocalist. He was hoping that making his solo album might inspire the group to get back into the studio. Unfortunately, the Beach Boys just didn't have it in them for another 3-4 years or so. That's exactly what I was focusing on a while back when listening to his interviews from around that time. I said (maybe in this thread? Not sure.) somewhere that I felt Carl actually caved on his demands to some extent when he rejoined the group. He talked about getting to work not just in refining the live shows, but recording something new. Yet by the time Youngblood was released in Feb. 1983, he had already rejoined the band. New recording? Not to be released for another two-and-a-half years.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Feb 24, 2022 15:00:55 GMT
Then after BB85, the studio work appeared to be more Melcher/Mike led (through SIP), at which point the group all but retired as recording artists.
|
|
|
Post by lonelysummer on Feb 25, 2022 2:51:44 GMT
And not quite as on-topic, but it really comes across in this interview that Carl left the group rather abruptly because they weren't interested in recording the follow-up to KTSA in the 2nd half of 1980. He really wanted the group to write and record, and he even mentioned wanting to practice and improve his abilities as a vocalist. He was hoping that making his solo album might inspire the group to get back into the studio. Unfortunately, the Beach Boys just didn't have it in them for another 3-4 years or so. That's exactly what I was focusing on a while back when listening to his interviews from around that time. I said (maybe in this thread? Not sure.) somewhere that I felt Carl actually caved on his demands to some extent when he rejoined the group. He talked about getting to work not just in refining the live shows, but recording something new. Yet by the time Youngblood was released in Feb. 1983, he had already rejoined the band. New recording? Not to be released for another two-and-a-half years. My opinion: at that point in 1983, there were more pressing matters; Dennis' decline; getting Brian back in shape. So I don't see that as caving at all. "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans". But the point about the Beach Boys becoming the Melcher/Love group after BB85 is true. Some of the guys did not like working with Steve Levine; the feeling was mutual. There was a rumour that Carl was going to do a third solo album, with Levine as producer, but obviously that never got off the ground.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Feb 25, 2022 13:44:42 GMT
But getting Brian back into shape was no bigger a concern in 1983 than in 1980, 81, 82, etc. Yes, Brian was fully working with Landy to actually do it by then ... but why would that mean Carl should go back into the band against his previous conditions? Think this way: "With Brian 300+ pound and a heavy drug user, I am willing to quit the Beach Boys until we record new material; but if Brian starts getting healthier, I will rejoin the Beach Boys despite not recording new material in support of him." It doesn't really make sense: one has nothing to do with the other.
And it's similar with Dennis: he was a wreck when Carl quit and made the demands. So what's the difference that makes him rejoin when Dennis is still a wreck?
In fact, the two cases are almost opposite logic. Rejoin because Brian is getting back into shape, and rejoin because Dennis is still a wreck?
I'm not saying the health of his brothers wasn't more important than being in (or not being in) the Beach Boys. I just don't see what it has to do with it.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 25, 2022 14:10:35 GMT
Two things on Carl's involvement in Brian's "health situation" in 1982-83...
I don't know if Carl was Brian's Power Of Attorney (for both financial and physical concerns) during that time. I assume he was, unless Brian designated one of his attorneys to take that role. Anyway, I imagine that was a very stressful and, well, sad time for Carl. He basically had two choices - push to have a full-time conservator(s) assigned to monitor Brian's life 24/7, or turn Brian over to Dr. Landy for a second time, which would be, in effect, almost the same as turning Brian over to a conservator. Never mind that it was Brian Wilson, a legend and an icon to many, whose future was being decided. Obviously that would be met with much press, fanfare, and, honestly, a negative stigma. It was 1982 and mental illness was still not viewed as sympathetically as it would eventually be. The other unfortunate situation was that somebody, in this case Carl Wilson, would have to finally...admit...that Brian Wilson was seriously ill, both mentally and physically (addicted?), and could not take care of himself anymore. Brian Wilson was no longer "the lovable nut". This went beyond being quirky and reclusive. He was now seriously ill. Those are two situations, publicly and privately, that I wouldn't wish for anyone to have to make decisions about. I HAVE TO think that Carl was shaken by that dilemma both personally and professionally.
All of that being said, shortly after Brian was turned over to Dr. Landy's care, I have to think some pressure was taken off Carl, at least for the first few years. Brian was obviously making positive strides, physical and mentally, and while Carl might've continued to question his (or somebody else's) decision, the first few years of Brian's second tenure with Landy were mostly encouraging.
|
|
|
Post by lonelysummer on Feb 26, 2022 3:12:57 GMT
But getting Brian back into shape was no bigger a concern in 1983 than in 1980, 81, 82, etc. Yes, Brian was fully working with Landy to actually do it by then ... but why would that mean Carl should go back into the band against his previous conditions? Think this way: "With Brian 300+ pound and a heavy drug user, I am willing to quit the Beach Boys until we record new material; but if Brian starts getting healthier, I will rejoin the Beach Boys despite not recording new material in support of him." It doesn't really make sense: one has nothing to do with the other.
And it's similar with Dennis: he was a wreck when Carl quit and made the demands. So what's the difference that makes him rejoin when Dennis is still a wreck?
In fact, the two cases are almost opposite logic. Rejoin because Brian is getting back into shape, and rejoin because Dennis is still a wreck?
I'm not saying the health of his brothers wasn't more important than being in (or not being in) the Beach Boys. I just don't see what it has to do with it.
Well, for whatever reason, Carl was more alarmed about Brian's condition in 1982 than he was in 1980. Maybe it's the elephant in the room syndrome; it's been there all the time, but suddenly, one day, everybody finally notices "OMG! There's an elephant in the room!" But maybe you're right, maybe upon rejoining the group, Carl should have demanded that they go straight into the studio and spend 6 months crafting Pet Sounds 2, or Still Smiling. Instead, he became part of the touring band again, playing endless theme parks, baseball parks, hot dog stands and Fosters Freeze 200 days a year.
|
|
|
Post by lonelysummer on Feb 26, 2022 3:17:21 GMT
Two things on Carl's involvement in Brian's "health situation" in 1982-83...
I don't know if Carl was Brian's Power Of Attorney (for both financial and physical concerns) during that time. I assume he was, unless Brian designated one of his attorneys to take that role. Anyway, I imagine that was a very stressful and, well, sad time for Carl. He basically had two choices - push to have a full-time conservator(s) assigned to monitor Brian's life 24/7, or turn Brian over to Dr. Landy for a second time, which would be, in effect, almost the same as turning Brian over to a conservator. Never mind that it was Brian Wilson, a legend and an icon to many, whose future was being decided. Obviously that would be met with much press, fanfare, and, honestly, a negative stigma. It was 1982 and mental illness was still not viewed as sympathetically as it would eventually be. The other unfortunate situation was that somebody, in this case Carl Wilson, would have to finally...admit...that Brian Wilson was seriously ill, both mentally and physically (addicted?), and could not take care of himself anymore. Brian Wilson was no longer "the lovable nut". This went beyond being quirky and reclusive. He was now seriously ill. Those are two situations, publicly and privately, that I wouldn't wish for anyone to have to make decisions about. I HAVE TO think that Carl was shaken by that dilemma both personally and professionally.
All of that being said, shortly after Brian was turned over to Dr. Landy's care, I have to think some pressure was taken off Carl, at least for the first few years. Brian was obviously making positive strides, physical and mentally, and while Carl might've continued to question his (or somebody else's) decision, the first few years of Brian's second tenure with Landy were mostly encouraging.
Thank you. I couldn't say it any better myself. The Wilson family was in denial about Brian's health for many, many years. Something about his behavior, addictions, and weight gain finally woke them up - or at least woke Carl up - to what a destructive path Brian was on. But damn that Carl, that he put off taking care of Dennis until after Christmas 1983! (paraphrasing Landy's comments about Carl from HIS book "Wouldn't it Be Nice if I Slandered the Wilson Family in Brian's Name", 1991.
|
|
Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 520
Likes: 532
|
Post by Emdeeh on Feb 26, 2022 5:19:07 GMT
It's not documented and I can't confirm it, but I have heard that Dennis visited Carl in Colorado in Dec. 1983.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Oct 3, 2022 16:58:47 GMT
This is actually continuing a convo from the "Best/Worst of Each Album" thread, but especially since we've moved on there from Holland to 15BO, I didn't want to take too big a tangent. So I'm quoting where jk left it, and continuing from there.
OK, cool! This is what I found just now: SSMB thread title: Lowest point in the BB career? Dancing Bear (July 2008): "Adam, why do you think Carl dried up as an interesting songwriter after Long Promised Road / Feel Flows / Trader / Angel Come Home?" adamghost: "Hmm. Good question. Well, I think there are a couple of possible factors. "One's not so obvious...when I worked out those songs for the LONG PROMISED ROAD album, I noticed how odd the chord structures were. They're the kind of songs you write when you're not a very schooled keyboard player but you're really searching for the sounds and interesting chord shapes. Carl would have this weird chords with 2s and 6s and 3rds in the bass. It made it sound like there was never any home key, and combined with the particular layered production style he favored in the early '70s gave everything an otherworldly quality. "Now you get into the later stuff, it's much more traditional, and may I say guitar-oriented. Carl's not really stretching out on an unfamiliar instrument, although 'Heaven' has some weird chords, some of those same kind of chord structures. The difference with 'Heaven' though is whereas on keyboards and with that particular type of song structure, it sounds like you're in outer space, with acoustic guitar and a more generic production style, it feels like you're just idling and not really going anywhere, which songs with lots of sixth chords in them tend to be like ('Babe' by Styx leaps to mind). (I know a lot of people love 'Heaven' so I don't mean to bum anybody's trip...but imagine it being done on SURF'S UP on a Wurlitzer electric piano and that might convey what I'm talking about) "Another thing is that ever notice that 'Feel Flows' and 'Long Promised Road' are the same song? Same chord progression, just a different production and melody. "So my personal theory is a lot of what made Carl interesting wasn't what he wrote, but how he produced it. He didn't really start writing prolifically until the late '70s, after what most of us think of as his peak. Once you take the guy out of the studio he owns and put him in Caribou Ranch, or with Steve Levine or whatever, he's much less likely to say "I would produce it this way" than go with the flow of people who have more experience. Plus by the '80s Carl wanted a hit as much as everybody else did. And so you get a much less interesting interpretation of the songs he came up with. "Another factor is from what I'm told Carl by 1980 was into country music and hard rock, basically. And I mean new country, 1980 country, not Johnny Cash or Merle Haggard. So his tastes were reflected in what he wrote, and I think a lot of us would feel that that wasn't as interesting as what he was probably listening to 10 years before. "That said, a lot of my favorite Carl stuff is from later years. 'Keepin' The Summer Alive' and 'Maybe I Don't Know' were fascinating...he actually forced the Beach Boys to try to be an '80s AOR band, and just about pulled it off. And 'Where I Belong' is gorgeous. I like some of the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson stuff too. But I get your point."
Adam did email me back, though just briefly. He said that yes, he did indeed say that about Carl's music (that shapes of chords seemed more important than any harmonic theory might have been). Then he added:
"I was totally baffled by Long Promised Road. It was the most difficult BBs song I’d ever tried to learn. Then I realized Carl was just moving his fingers around the white keys. And then suddenly it all made sense."
|
|