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Post by kds on Aug 31, 2021 12:13:14 GMT
What is odd for me personally is that I hear "Don't Go Near the Water" almost as a novelty track, like "Feet." And it's not! Some of the lyrics are a little clunky, but I don't think they're meant to be funny or gimmicky ... or are they? Honestly with these guys, it's not always obvious. I think it's the production that seems cartoonish because it's got the synth bass, the heavy effects on the guitars. It's just technicolor!
Point being, to pair "Surf's Up"--a stone-cold artistic masterpiece--with a novelty song seems morally wrong! Yet if you consider the alternative, pairing it with another serious song just seems like a buzzkill, especially knowing people were presumably thinking they wanted some fun out of the Beach Boys.
I think it veers into novelty song territory in the middle section with "toothpaste and soap" bit. And the "right away" / "let's start today" response sound like they'd be featured in an environmentally themed Hanna Barbara cartoon at the time.
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Post by kds on Aug 31, 2021 12:14:47 GMT
I agree that Surf's Up isn't a typical type of song that would be considered a single in 1971. It's over four minutes long. There's really no chorus or hook. But, I took a look at some of the top singles of 1971, and I see stuff like Uncle Albert / Admiral Halsey and Riders on the Storm, neither of which were your typical 45. I think, in this case, this is The Beach Boys saying "all right world, this is the song you've been waiting for, it's the best song we've got, here it fuckin' is!!!!" Yes and no (because they didn't release it as the lead-off single). I kinda feel like they pulled a "Maybe I'm Amazed" and purposefully didn't release it as a single (until 3 full months after the album was released) because they wanted to drive up album sales. Obviously, the other songs on Surf's Up are FAR stronger than the other songs on McCartney, but I think it's the same principle. The Beach Boys went the extra step of naming the album after it and using it as the closer (and at the cost of alienating Dennis and losing one of his greatest songs, no less). Personally, I would have done exactly what you depict. My lead-off single would have been "Surf's Up"/"Til I Die". Then I would have followed that up with one of Carl's (personally, I prefer "Long Promised Road", and it continues to grow on me, but along the lines of what I've said previously, I probably would have advised "Feel Flows"). Surf's Up / Til I Die definitely would've made more sense as a single.
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Post by carllove on Aug 31, 2021 16:55:57 GMT
Yes and no (because they didn't release it as the lead-off single). I kinda feel like they pulled a "Maybe I'm Amazed" and purposefully didn't release it as a single (until 3 full months after the album was released) because they wanted to drive up album sales. Obviously, the other songs on Surf's Up are FAR stronger than the other songs on McCartney, but I think it's the same principle. The Beach Boys went the extra step of naming the album after it and using it as the closer (and at the cost of alienating Dennis and losing one of his greatest songs, no less). Personally, I would have done exactly what you depict. My lead-off single would have been "Surf's Up"/"Til I Die". Then I would have followed that up with one of Carl's (personally, I prefer "Long Promised Road", and it continues to grow on me, but along the lines of what I've said previously, I probably would have advised "Feel Flows"). Surf's Up / Til I Die definitely would've made more sense as a single. That would have been a bonofide 10!
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2021 13:22:10 GMT
I'm waffling between a 9 and a 10.
...
In fact, I wonder whether or how much its chart failure made Brian less confident in the Smile material. It's one thing to not finish something you're pretty sure is great, that everyone says is great, and let it live as legend; it's another to finish (part of) it, release it, and have it fail to chart altogether.
On the first point, I have decided to go 9. As great as "Surf's Up" is, the single as a whole just isn't a 10.
On the latter point, I had forgotten I wrote that ... but now seeing it again, I'm curious: anyone have any opinions on that? Do you think the relative failure of this song as a single hurt Brian's confidence, especially regarding Smile material? Or was it all irrelevant by that point?
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Post by kds on Sept 3, 2021 13:25:04 GMT
I'm waffling between a 9 and a 10.
...
In fact, I wonder whether or how much its chart failure made Brian less confident in the Smile material. It's one thing to not finish something you're pretty sure is great, that everyone says is great, and let it live as legend; it's another to finish (part of) it, release it, and have it fail to chart altogether.
On the first point, I have decided to go 9. As great as "Surf's Up" is, the single as a whole just isn't a 10.
On the latter point, I had forgotten I wrote that ... but now seeing it again, I'm curious: anyone have any opinions on that? Do you think the relative failure of this song as a single hurt Brian's confidence, especially regarding Smile material? Or was it all irrelevant by that point?
It wouldn't surprise me. I remember reading that the failure of the Sunflower album caused him to withdraw. So, I could see the failure of the centerpiece of his lost masterpiece to reach an audience only adding to that. To this day, he's still pretty reluctant to play Surf's Up in concert.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2021 13:32:23 GMT
The fact that it's wordy and largely out of his range nowadays probably doesn't help on that front.
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Post by kds on Sept 3, 2021 13:37:30 GMT
The fact that it's wordy and largely out of his range nowadays probably doesn't help on that front. True, but that hasn't seemed to stop him from singing Heroes and Villains, a song that I really think he should hand over to Al to sing.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2021 13:52:42 GMT
I'm waffling between a 9 and a 10.
...
In fact, I wonder whether or how much its chart failure made Brian less confident in the Smile material. It's one thing to not finish something you're pretty sure is great, that everyone says is great, and let it live as legend; it's another to finish (part of) it, release it, and have it fail to chart altogether.
On the first point, I have decided to go 9. As great as "Surf's Up" is, the single as a whole just isn't a 10.
On the latter point, I had forgotten I wrote that ... but now seeing it again, I'm curious: anyone have any opinions on that? Do you think the relative failure of this song as a single hurt Brian's confidence, especially regarding Smile material? Or was it all irrelevant by that point?
As a single, "Surf's Up" lacks some qualities of a successful single. The first part and last part are fine, but the middle section brings it to a grinding halt. That being said, and as I posted above, I'm still glad they gave it a shot as a single. You just never know when something unsingle-like will catch on. Yes, "Surf's Up" the song and/or album track is a 10. "Surf's Up" the single, um, not so much.
A part of me thinks the failure of the single hurt Brian. I guess he still cared about the song because of his supposed objection to the group resurrecting it for the album. Another part of me thinks that Brian had already, maybe not accepted, but came to terms with the fact that SMiLE wasn't gonna happen, its time came and went, and he was trying to move on. I also think that Brian was, if not starting, already in his "not caring anymore" mode of writing/recording music like he was just a few years ago, and entering into a very unhealthy frame of mind and lifestyle. I wonder if Brian Wilson even realizes that "Surf's Up" was released as a single.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2021 14:01:19 GMT
I also think that Brian was, if not starting, already in his "not caring anymore" mode of writing/recording music like he was just a few ago, and entering into a very unhealthy frame of mind and lifestyle. Some of the notes found in the Feel Flows box--old quotes, especially from Carl--reminded me of thoughts I'd had years ago. That Brian really seemed unwilling to or afraid of extending himself too much during these years (and maybe to some degree ever again).
The way it's phrased is that Brian liked to work quickly, or that Brian only wanted to work when he was energized by an idea, or that Brian now liked to collaborate more than he used to. All of these are presented in opposition to the "old Brian" who loved the studio and used it and groups of musicians to craft complex and ambitious productions.
My sneaking suspicion is, was he just self-sabotaging in a sense? Aim low, act like you don't care, so that if you fail, it's not really a failure? Or was he truly just temporarily out of ideas and/or incapable of holding together large productions due to his illnesses and addictions? (Or I suppose most likely, all of the above?)
Because it's remarkable that someone could go from "Surf's Up," "Our Prayer," and "Cabinessence" to "Games Two Can Play," "I Just Got My Pay" or "Walkin" with a straight face. I wonder whether "music to cool out by" was really more just an excuse to guard against embarrassment or failure.
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Post by kds on Sept 3, 2021 14:03:50 GMT
On the first point, I have decided to go 9. As great as "Surf's Up" is, the single as a whole just isn't a 10.
On the latter point, I had forgotten I wrote that ... but now seeing it again, I'm curious: anyone have any opinions on that? Do you think the relative failure of this song as a single hurt Brian's confidence, especially regarding Smile material? Or was it all irrelevant by that point?
As a single, "Surf's Up" lacks some qualities of a successful single. The first part and last part are fine, but the middle section brings it to a grinding halt. That being said, and as I posted above, I'm still glad they gave it a shot as a single. You just never know when something unsingle-like will catch on. Yes, "Surf's Up" the song and/or album track is a 10. "Surf's Up" the single, um, not so much.
A part of me thinks the failure of the single hurt Brian. I guess he still cared about the song because of his supposed objection to the group resurrecting it for the album. Another part of me thinks that Brian had already, maybe not accepted, but came to terms with the fact that SMiLE wasn't gonna happen, its time came and went, and he was trying to move on. I also think that Brian was, if not starting, already in his "not caring anymore" mode of writing/recording music like he was just a few years ago, and entering into a very unhealthy frame of mind and lifestyle. I wonder if Brian Wilson even realizes that "Surf's Up" was released as a single.
I believe this, especially since by 1971, most of the best (IMO) parts of Smile had been released on various BB Albums.
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Post by kds on Sept 3, 2021 14:05:29 GMT
I also think that Brian was, if not starting, already in his "not caring anymore" mode of writing/recording music like he was just a few ago, and entering into a very unhealthy frame of mind and lifestyle. Some of the notes found in the Feel Flows box--old quotes, especially from Carl--reminded me of thoughts I'd had years ago. That Brian really seemed unwilling to or afraid of extending himself too much during these years (and maybe to some degree ever again).
The way it's phrased is that Brian liked to work quickly, or that Brian only wanted to work when he was energized by an idea, or that Brian now liked to collaborate more than he used to. All of these are presented in opposition to the "old Brian" who loved the studio and used it and groups of musicians to craft complex and ambitious productions.
My sneaking suspicion is, was he just self-sabotaging in a sense? Aim low, act like you don't care, so that if you fail, it's not really a failure? Or was he truly just temporarily out of ideas and/or incapable of holding together large productions due to his illnesses and addictions? (Or I suppose most likely, all of the above?)
Because it's remarkable that someone could go from "Surf's Up," "Our Prayer," and "Cabinessence" to "Games Two Can Play," "I Just Got My Pay" or "Walkin" with a straight face. I wonder whether "music to cool out by" was really more just an excuse to guard against embarrassment or failure.
I think there's probably some truth to that, but he could still churn out something like This Whole World. I personally think that everything, the non release of Smile, the drug abuse, the mental illness, etc caught up with Brian, and maybe he just wasn't capable of doing what he could before.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2021 14:13:02 GMT
Yes, I do think "not capable" is the right answer, with the questions about what made him not capable interesting, but probably all incomplete, interrelated, and so somewhat irrelevant. Drugs. Mental illness. Confused or uncertain in a changing musical environment. Scared. Unhappy about his circumstances, family, band. All of it plays into all of it, and probably ended up in cycles of downward spirals through those years to (arguably?) his first nadir, in the early-mid '70s.
At the end of the day, I think he was obviously still tremendously talented, but not capable of doing what he had done a few years earlier. I don't buy the "I'll stick it to them! Ha! I just won't try!" angle, the kind of thing Marilyn's comments in the Endless Harmony doc hinted at, when she says something like "You think it's so easy? You do it!" I'm sure he had some of those feelings, but I don't think it was like someone who could just as easily step back into his role if he felt like it. It's not like a dad stepping back and letting his little kid try and fail before coming to the rescue. He may have felt a little bit of that spiteful attitude in a semi-voluntary retreat, but I think his capabilities were also simply shrinking.
There is also the question with things like "This Whole World" of how much of its brilliance was Brian's versus Carl's? Yes, he wrote the song, and it is impressive. But when it comes to the arrangement and production, did Carl oversee it from a hand's-on perspective, a la "Marcella" and other tunes? Or did Brian personally really rise to the occasion, as we hear he did from time to time? I wonder.
It's all a shame, because as much as I love the other band members having stepped up during these years and contributing great ideas and performances, the reality is that a healthy and productive Brian could only have made them better still.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2021 14:27:44 GMT
This my take. I think Brian Wilson always recorded whatever he wanted regardless of what anybody else thought or wanted. How else can you explain Pet Sounds, SMiLE, Smiley Smile, the Friends album, "Sail Plane Song", "My Solution", "Mount Vernon And Fairway", Adult Child, and on and on. However, at the same time, I think commercial success and acceptance was also important, very important, to him. Yes, Brian was quoted as saying, "I never wrote a single note of music because I thought it would make money" - or something to that effect. But, that didn't mean he still didn't want it to be a big hit. And, that's what I think Brian struggled with post-SMiLE. I don't think he ever had a problem going "out there" with his writing. I think he still/always had the urge to be creative and write...anything he wanted. And he did. However, I think the attitude of "why bust my tail and take a chance and give them something cool if nobody is gonna buy it or even like it" started to creep in. And, I really think that eventually overtook him. It wasn't just seeing his albums and singles tanking on the charts. It was more the thought of people not "liking it" or liking...him. It just wasn't worth it anymore. He already lost that competitive urge with his peers/rivals. He made more money than he'd ever need. His reputation as a musical genius was sealed. He didn't need any of that motivation. I think Brian ended up going "out there" occasionally (he was STILL Brian Wilson to an extent), still being somewhat creative, but not all the way, and certainly not enough to produce consistently great, "genius" music. Maybe he simply thought, "They aren't gonna like it anyway". So, he gave us other BB music that we might...like (Darlin', Do It Again, This Whole World, Marcella, etc.). Obviously, there were other emotional and substance abuse problems affecting that output, too, which might be bigger factors in the equation.
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Post by kds on Sept 3, 2021 14:27:45 GMT
That's a valid point about This Whole World, and you can have that debate for any instance over the last 50 years whenever something great comes out with a (B. Wilson) credit.
When you look at it, Brian's situation, where he doesn't seem to be able to recapture the ability he once had, isn't too dissimilar from other artists of advancing age, although it seem seem to strike him when he was far younger.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2021 14:38:17 GMT
When you look at it, Brian's situation, where he doesn't seem to be able to recapture the ability he once had, isn't too dissimilar from other artists of advancing age, although it seem seem to strike him when he was far younger. That's the tragedy of it to me. Bringing it back to the era in question with this single, you could argue this (say, 1968-73) should have been his prime. The Stones, the Beatles and their members after the breakup, the Who, the CSN&Y guys, and many others of that same era were really at or near the top of their games.
Brian wasn't anymore. Bob Dylan could be argued similarly as having had an unexpected dip/lull. But he came back strong in a way Brian never did. In both cases, it seems external pressures of being "geniuses" (among other things) really affected them. It's almost surprising that John Lennon did a lot of his best work in that era, being similarly spotlighted.
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