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Post by Kapitan on Mar 20, 2019 23:33:58 GMT
Humor me on this.
I am fascinated by--and historically comment regularly on--stereotypes, especially of musicians (but really of historical figures, real-life acquaintances ... everyone). I don't mean that negatively. I just mean that it seems to me people take primary characteristics of someone and use that to identify the person, to understand the person.
Of course, all of us could be defined in any number of ways. (Is it a Hindu story about the blind men each touching an elephant and coming away understanding an elephant to be like a tree trunk, like a snake, like a wall, etc.)
So ... which of the poll options best describes your Brian Wilson?
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Mar 21, 2019 0:54:45 GMT
I think the middle three choice can all fit to a certain extent. Passive aggressive is something that also fits, though that may fall under master manipulator as well. He's struck me as a child like figure in the way he wrote lyrics and how he behaved in the studio.
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Post by geminitactics on Mar 21, 2019 2:05:49 GMT
Yeah, this is difficult. I think one of the reasons I find Brian Wilson so compelling is because it's impossible to settle on a definitive answer from all of these possibilities.
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Post by B.E. on Mar 21, 2019 2:39:08 GMT
Among the top four choices, I think "tortured genius" best represents my view of Brian. It's most encompassing. Sure, he may have been at his best as a sensitive balladeer of sorts, but no one can convince me that he didn't love and excel at an assortment of styles (e.g. uptempo rock 'n' roll!). I think the passive aggressiveness and manipulative tendencies gets overplayed (if not entirely mischaracterized). And hardworking? At times, absolutely. Continually? I think not.
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Post by sebevedomy on Mar 21, 2019 6:04:56 GMT
All of the above. I'd also add (negatively): Primadonna and (positively) impulsive teddy bear.
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 21, 2019 12:16:13 GMT
By the way, obviously I know this is a reductive kind of question that’s not possible for honest, intelligent people to seriously answer. Just through the years, I’ve noticed so many people toss out assumptions or hypotheticals that rely on this sort of thing.
To stir it up I’m tempted to say master manipulator. I definitely think he’s got that element to him. But I’ll take the easy way out and say sensitive balladeer.
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 21, 2019 12:17:50 GMT
But I should add, my answer for probably the 1st 10 years of my fandom was tortured genius. It’s a common trope about artists and I bought in entirely, not just with BW. It’s a romantic notion, but an entirely unhealthy one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 14:39:27 GMT
By 'other' I mean: Outsider artist. Humorous. Innocent. Manipulative. Shy. Awkward. Gregarious. Talented in particular and peculiar ways.
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 21, 2019 15:06:51 GMT
By 'other' I mean: Outsider artist. Humorous. Innocent. Manipulative. Shy. Awkward. Gregarious. Talented in particular and peculiar ways. “Outsider artist”: do say more because I think some serious fans definitely feel this way. I don’t, or at least don’t to a large degree. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 21, 2019 21:30:17 GMT
Great topic but it's impossible to vote for just one "Brian" because of the length of his career and the various changes he has experienced along the way. Not only has he changed physically, but his voice has changed, his personality, his songwriting/recording methods, his motivation, and as I alluded to, his age now plays into the equation. At various times in his career, he has been a couple if not all of the Brian's listed above.
1961-1964 > Just a hard workin' guy...Brian came out with guns a-blazing just like any teenager who formed his first band. He knew what and who he liked and what and who he wanted to sound like - again just like any other teenager who had influences. If you liked The Doors, your first band would probably be organ-heavy. If you liked Black Sabbath, your first band would probably be guitar driven. An so on. You get the picture. Brian liked The Four Freshmen and early rock and roll and that's exactly what he built the early Beach Boys' sound on. And Brian worked very, very hard. He wrote the music, arranged the songs, supplied some lyrics, produced the tracks, and performed the music. Oh, and toured in a rock and roll band! That's a lot of plain old hard work. Brian worked very hard and he obviously had the talent to match. He did his homework, he learned from the masters, and the results showed. Very few did it better.
1965-1973 > Tortured Genius...Now, take everything listed above, and add one huge element to the mix - drugs - and you have a different Brian Wilson. Even Marilyn Wilson, who knew Brian the best, said that he was never the same after taking drugs, most notably LSD. Whether it was marijuana, LSD, uppers, downers, hashish, cocaine, or alcohol, it affected Brian's songwriting. It took it to another level. It took it to the cosmos. It took Brian to a place where very few have ever gone. Even Brian has admitted it. He has said that drugs help him write songs, be more creative, come up with notes/music out of nowhere. While Brian might've still worked hard at his craft, he was now talking about writing songs like "God Only Knows" in seven minutes. He also mentioned how fast "Heroes And Villains" and "Surf's Up" came about. Can anybody listen to the SMiLE Sessions and not hear genius in that music? Whatever drugs did to Brian Wilson's brain during this period, it took his music to another level, a higher plain, again to a quality that very few have matched in the history of popular music. Sadly, over time, the drugs would have a negative effect.
1974-2019 > Master Manipulator...Well, we know he wasn't the hard workin' guy anymore, with stories about not finishing songs, cutting sessions short, not finishing album projects, having to be coaxed into...working. Oh, it wasn't all a lack of hard work. The negative effects of the drug abuse and years of mental illness began to take their toll. Brian had changed. In many ways. He wasn't the sweet, young Brian Wilson. He didn't genius around much anymore. Heck, we didn't know what to expect from year to year, album to album. Yeah, at times you sensed or felt the old Brian Wilson vibe, but those moments were fleeting, especially the genius moments. You almost had to use past tense when referring to Brian Wilson as a genius. Brian was resorting to more "old tricks" musically than being the trailblazer and coming up with new things. Art began to take a back seat to product. What was even more troubling was Brian's increasing use of collaborators. What did that mean? It meant that less and less of the songwriting, arranging,and production was Brian's, and more and more of the final product was due to the collaborators. That's where the manipulation comes in, especially with Brian's solo career. Questions, questions, and more questions.
I suppose a part of Brian was always the sensitive balladeer in a cruel, cruel world. Brian Wilson sensitive? Yes. That's been well documented. In a cruel, cruel world? By being part of the Wilson family, by being part of The Beach Boys, and by making a career in the world of rock and roll - hell yeah! But just exactly how much, meaning how sensitive was he and how cruel was the world? Were Brian's problems exacerbated because he was too sensitive? Doesn't history show that he usually - not always but usually - got his own way, called his own shots, did his own thing? Musically, didn't Brian record and release just about anything he wanted, just about anything he wrote. There have been exceptions, songs/albums rejected, Adult Child being the most notable. And don't give me SMiLE; Brian pulled the plug on that one.
I don't know how to vote. He's all of the above!
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 22, 2019 14:41:39 GMT
Wait, you mean a man well into his 70s with a 50+-year career can't be summed up in a several-word description? I don't buy it!
Just hoping to stir up some discussion, really. Though truly I do believe, especially when discussing counterfactual hypotheticals or trying to explain things we just don't know (e.g. digging into motivations), people use this sort of overly broad characterization all the time. For example, "if left to his own devices, Brian would create brilliant, avante garde work along the lines of Smile (or beyond!) because he is that kind of artist and has been held back by others, forced into uncomfortable commercial boxes."
That specific line of reasoning assumes that since basically being a solo artist--30 years now--someone or other has continued to be that commercial pressure holding him back. Different someones. Different labels. Or going back into his post-60s work, even different spouses or friends. It's a challenging position to hold, I'd say: this person is X despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but I justify it because everyone else is always keeping him from being X. It's like the person who says he'd be rich and successful if only it weren't for his parents, his siblings, his grade school teachers, his high school teachers, his college professors, his ex-girlfriends, his friends, his bosses, his community...
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 22, 2019 21:23:04 GMT
Yes, and what makes the question even more complicated - because Brian Wilson is such a complicated person, an enigma no less - is that he could be all of the above "things" AT THE SAME TIME! Never mind being one type of individual for X number of years and then transitioning into another type of individual for the next amount of years. Hell, Brian Wilson can be all of the above criteria at the same time!
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Post by kds on Mar 24, 2019 3:38:02 GMT
I voted tortured genius because, I fully believe that's what Brian Wilson was in his prime. By that, I mean the 1960s into the early 70s, when Brian truly was a genius.
I've said this on other forums, and I don't say it to be mean or to slam Brian, but I think Brian's first decade in the business in amazing, and I think he's coasted on reputation ever since.
Now, I like a lot of Brian's material from the last 45 years, in particular in the last decade, but I do not think it comes even close to his prime years.
On a side note, I find it strange that people think of Brian as some sort of edgy, weird, avant garde artist. Why? Because of an album that lived in myth for 37 years? Because of a bizarre concept piece that the Beach Boys righfully cast aside as a free EP to not ruin a really good album? Because of an album from 1977 that varies from OK to insane?
I see people post that "we want to hear a real Brian album." Maybe the collaborations with Joe Thomas and Scott Bennett are as close as we're gonna get.
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Post by mancheeni on Mar 24, 2019 7:07:47 GMT
Had to go with "Hardworkin' guy." I think the foundation of his career is his musical curiosity and ability to execute his own artistic vision. Tortured addict, genius manipulator, passive aggressive bandmate, etc. -- these are all by-products of his primary motivation to make a business out of music (whether that was his own drive or Murry's). I guess you could argue that any of the other characteristics motivated him to make a career in music, but I'm not convinced. A close second would be "sensitive balladeer" because that is arguably a motivator for his hardworking spirit.
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 24, 2019 14:04:06 GMT
On a side note, I find it strange that people think of Brian as some sort of edgy, weird, avant garde artist. Why? I think it's because Brian is pretty clearly sometimes personally a very strange man (not to mention troubled one), and his mostly traditional music often has little quirks But avante garde? I don't think so. He had a few moments of that, but not many. His music has mostly been very firmly rooted in mainstream styles--even though sometimes brilliant recombinations of them--aimed, however misguided those aims may have been at the times, at commercial success.
But that's not cool for some people. Outsiders are cooler. Avante garde is cooler. So you take Smile and stick with it, insisting everything would've been Smile (or maybe Love You / Adult/Child) if you only let him loose. But often, Brian wants to do covers of '50s songs, or "It's OK," or "She's Got Rhythm," or "Woncha Come Out Tonight," or "Oh Darlin," or ...
(And let's not mistake terrible lyrics with an avante garde sensibility.)
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