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Post by kds on Jul 23, 2019 19:40:00 GMT
I think I may have told you on Pet Sounds Forum, but I was at one of the first shows after they changed their name to Doors of the 21st Century. It was billed with the D21C name, and all of the merch still had the name, when they were introduced as Riders on the Storm. This was in DC in the summer of 2005. Great show. I remember before the encore, Ray asked the crowd what song they wanted to hear. One or two yelled for The End, and Ray said "We don't do that one, it's Jim's." I'm surprised the DVD is on Amazon Marketable as cheap as $5.91. I'd have thought after the lawsuit, that out of print DVD would be more of a collector's item. Great story! The funny this is/was, I didn't really have a problem with Ray & Robby calling themselves whatever they were calling themselves at that time, although I thought they reached the point in their careers where they could simply go as Ray Manzarek & Robby Krieger. If they wanted to add Of The Doors at the end that would've been fine, too. I had a bit of a problem with John Densmore's stance, but I could see some of his point. On one hand, I thought it was admirable that he wasn't in it for the money anymore, on the other hand I thought he was being a little too righteous and maybe attention-seeking. He ended up writing a book about a lot of that name controversy.
It was a no-brainer (I thought anyway) that Ray and Robby sought out other lead vocalists, but I never really cared for any of them. It's not that they didn't have good voices, they did, but I thought sometimes they were going out of their way to NOT channel Jim. I wanted them/it to sound like Jim! I think it's part of the ...tribute. IMO 
I have to pick up that DVD, but I have to ask - what is Amazon Marketable?
I apologize, I meant Amazon Marketplace, when you can buy items on Amazon from other sellers, not directly from a fulfillment center. I read Densmore's book about the subject, and I thought he came off as a bit of a cry baby, quite frankly. If they called it "The Doors," then I could see that being an issue. I see no problem with Ray and Robbie wanting to go out and play those songs for people who weren't lucky enough to see them the first time. I'm doubt Kreiger / Manzarek would have nearly as much cache, just as May / Taylor or Love / Johnston wouldn't. I thought Ian Astbury did try to channel Jim to be honest, maybe not as much vocally because their voices are different, but his mannerisms on stage and wardrobe were very Morrison-eqsue.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 23, 2019 20:00:21 GMT
Believe it or not, I haven't read Densmore's book (I've read excerpts and interviews with John about it), so maybe I'm speaking out of turn. But I thought that John would be a little more understanding or sympathetic to Ray and Robby. John went through the whole Other Voices thing in 1971, the whole "what do we do now, what should we call ourselves now" after Jim died. And they ended up going forward and calling themselves The Doors. So, what changed with John? The fact that he wasn't touring anymore?
I agree with you. Of course Ray and Robby wanted to make a few bucks, but I think they were really into it, really wanted to perform, and as you said, really wanted to give their loyal fans something special. Again I didn't read John's book, but I wonder if Ray and Robby were willing to give John a cut from the shows, like Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys? Looks like I have to get the DVD AND Densmore's book!
I liked Ian Astbury somewhat. I think he was committed to the cause and gave his all. Yeah, he wore black leather and the shades and held the microphone a certain way, but I could never get past his voice. A good voice, just not enough Morrison-esque for me.
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Post by kds on Jul 23, 2019 20:10:04 GMT
Believe it or not, I haven't read Densmore's book (I've read excerpts and interviews with John about it), so maybe I'm speaking out of turn. But I thought that John would be a little more understanding or sympathetic to Ray and Robby. John went through the whole Other Voices thing in 1971, the whole "what do we do now, what should we call ourselves now" after Jim died. And they ended up going forward and calling themselves The Doors. So, what changed with John? The fact that he wasn't touring anymore?
I agree with you. Of course Ray and Robby wanted to make a few bucks, but I think they were really into it, really wanted to perform, and as you said, really wanted to give their loyal fans something special. Again I didn't read John's book, but I wonder if Ray and Robby were willing to give John a cut from the shows, like Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys? Looks like I have to get the DVD AND Densmore's book!
I liked Ian Asbury somewhat. I think he was committed to the cause and gave his all. Yeah, he wore black leather and the shades and held the microphone a certain way, but I could never get past his voice. A good voice, just not enough Morrison-esque for me.
Astbury's voice is more of a hard rock voice, but to be fair, there really aren't many singers out there who sound like Jim, unless they went the Journey route and found a soundalike on YouTube. I remember around 2000, Ray, Robbie, and John did a VH1 Storytellers with several singers including Scott Weiland, Scott Stapp, and Astbury, and I thought Astbury was far and away the best fit. If I remember, I think Densmore was offered a cut (don't quote me, it's been at least five years since I read the book), but he was so against that name and logo being used, and his whole thing was the logo was THE DOORS in the huge font from the debut album, and "of the 21st Century" in much smaller font, as if they were trying to hide something. As much people going to shows don't realize that Jim won't be there? It's like the same argument I used to have on other BB forums. Mike and Bruce don't try to hide the fact that they're the only Beach Boys at post 1998 Beach Boys shows.
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Post by B.E. on Jul 25, 2019 0:27:42 GMT
kds I'm curious to know if there are any specific reasons why you rank Waiting For The Sun above L.A. Woman and Morrison Hotel and/or what your favorite songs on it are.
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Post by B.E. on Jul 25, 2019 2:03:33 GMT
After many years away, I've returned to The Doors the last few days and it's been a blast. Here's how I'd rank 'em from most to least favorite.
1. L.A. Woman (9/10) - My favorite album then and now. Favorite songs (in order): Been Down So Long, The Changeling, Love Her Madly, Cars Hiss By My Window, L.A. Woman. Man! Is Side 1 an all-timer or what?
2. Strange Days (8/10) - Favorite songs (in order): Love Me Two Times, People Are Strange, When The Music's Over, Moonlight Drive, You're Lost Little Girl.
3. The Doors (8/10) - Favorite songs (in order): Break On Through, Back Door Man, Twentieth Century Fox, Soul Kitchen, Light My Fire. I prefer the single edit of Light My Fire. My least favorite songs? The Crystal Ship and The End. The first is OK, but the second has not aged well for me. I'll probably skip it more often than not from here on out.
4. Morrison Hotel (8/10) - Favorite songs (in order): Roadhouse Blues, You Make Me Real, Peace Frog, Land Ho!, Ship Of Fools. Least Favorite? Queen Of The Highway.
5. Waiting For The Sun (7/10) - Favorite songs (in order): Hello I Love You, The Unknown Soldier, Five To One, My Wild Love, Spanish Caravan.
6. The Soft Parade (7/10) - Favorite songs (in order): Touch Me, Wild Child, Tell All The People, The Soft Parade.
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Post by B.E. on Jul 25, 2019 2:21:07 GMT
6. The Soft Parade 7. Waiting For The Sun
We've got an outlier!  Do you have an argument for The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun or did you flip a coin? I pretty much flipped a coin.
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Post by kds on Jul 25, 2019 12:06:54 GMT
kds I'm curious to know if there are any specific reasons why you rank Waiting For The Sun above L.A. Woman and Morrison Hotel and/or what your favorite songs on it are. From start to finish, I just find Waiting for the Sun a slightly more satisfying listen. Also, I'll admit, I've probably heard LA Woman's title track and Love Her Madly on classic rock radio a bit too many times, so that likely factors into my decision. Favorites on Waiting are Love Street, Five to One, Unknown Solider, Spanish Caravan, Not to Touch the Earth, and My Wild Love
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 25, 2019 12:25:09 GMT
6. The Soft Parade 7. Waiting For The Sun
We've got an outlier! Do you have an argument for The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun or did you flip a coin? I pretty much flipped a coin. First of all, I love all Doors' albums including Other Voices and Full Circle. But, in ranking albums, something has to finish near the top and something has to land at the bottom. I think, in this case, it's more the strengths of L.A. Woman, The Doors, Strange Days, and Morrison Hotel rather than the weaknesses of The Soft Parade and Waiting For The Sun.
To answer your question, my ranking of The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun is very, very close. I chose The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun because of a few reasons. I think on The Soft Parade, Jim's voice peaked. His voice got stronger after the first three years of singing. He kind of transformed from a dreamy, romantic, psychedelic (?) singer into a more confident and versatile singer. His phrasing was different (better?). He was actually a jazz singer on "Touch Me". Check out his phrasing on "Shaman Blues", the number of different voices used on "The Soft Parade", the confidence displayed on "Tell All The People" and "Runnin' Blue", and even the laugh which opens "Do It". Now, this is in no way a criticism of Jim's vocal work on the first three albums. I love Jim's vocals on those albums, and much of Jim's vocal reputation is based on a lot of those songs. I just think he progressed, took more chances, and his actual voice matured.
The other reason I prefer The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun is because I think it has more life; the songs are livelier. The songs aren't necessarily better, they don't exactly rock (except for "Wild Child"), but the arrangements make the songs more interesting. Also, Robby is more prevalent. Rothchild turned up his guitar! It still isn't where it became on Morrison Hotel and L.A. Woman, but it was starting to transform.
A lot of Doors' fans like Waiting For The Sun because of the more subdued, dreamy, romantic quality. I do, too! But Ray and Robby are just a little TOO subdued at times for my taste. When you look at what are considered the best songs on Waiting From The Sun, and that's a personal thing, I don't think they stand up to the best of the other albums. I also would've liked to hear a completed "The Celebration Of The Lizard". There just appears to be something missing from "Waiting For The Sun", and another "long Doors' track" might've done the trick. Again, I love Waiting For The Sun, but it's definitely not a favorite.
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Post by B.E. on Jul 25, 2019 15:23:43 GMT
To answer your question, my ranking of The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun is very, very close. I chose The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun because of a few reasons. I think on The Soft Parade, Jim's voice peaked. His voice got stronger after the first three years of singing. He kind of transformed from a dreamy, romantic, psychedelic (?) singer into a more confident and versatile singer. His phrasing was different (better?). He was actually a jazz singer on "Touch Me". Check out his phrasing on "Shaman Blues", the number of different voices used on "The Soft Parade", the confidence displayed on "Tell All The People" and "Runnin' Blue", and even the laugh which opens "Do It". Now, this is in no way a criticism of Jim's vocal work on the first three albums. I love Jim's vocals on those albums, and much of Jim's vocal reputation is based on a lot of those songs. I just think he progressed, took more chances, and his actual voice matured.
Hmm. Interesting. I'll keep this in mind. I did notice an improvement with Jim's vocals on The Soft Parade, but I actually attributed it more to (surprisingly) poor performances on Waiting For The Sun. In regard to "Touch Me", that's always been a bit of a turning point song for me, vocally. He may have sung with a similar delivery on earlier albums, but it's not until after "Touch Me" that I start to make that connection. For instance, I hear a similar delivery in songs ranging from "Blue Sunday" to "Hyacinth House". Though, I hesitate to even bring that up, because I'm no expert on The Doors or Jim's voice. The other reason I prefer The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun is because I think it has more life; the songs are livelier. The songs aren't necessarily better, they don't exactly rock (except for "Wild Child"), but the arrangements make the songs more interesting. Also, Robby is more prevalent. Rothchild turned up his guitar! It still isn't where it became on Morrison Hotel and L.A. Woman, but it was starting to transform.
A lot of Doors' fans like Waiting For The Sun because of the more subdued, dreamy, romantic quality.
When I mentioned poor vocal performances on Waiting For The Sun, I was referring specifically to "Summer's Almost Gone" and "Wintertime Love". I'd also say those two songs lack the "liveliness" of The Soft Parade (as a whole). I still can't quite put my finger on it. Is it the tired vocal performances, the arrangements, or do I just think the songs are somewhat boring? Probably a combination of all three. Now, I wouldn't even say I dislike these songs. I listen to them. I enjoy them, a little. Vocally, it just doesn't sound like Jim's trying hard enough on those songs. I get that with that type of material it's a very fine line. You obviously don't want to oversing it. Now, something cool (and unique) that I liked about Waiting For The Sun is the chanting. You can hear it on "The Unknown Soldier", "My Wild Love", and "Five To One".
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Post by B.E. on Jul 25, 2019 15:29:35 GMT
Favorites on Waiting are Love Street, Five to One, Unknown Solider, Spanish Caravan, Not to Touch the Earth, and My Wild Love I didn't like it initially, but "Love Street" is growing on me.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 25, 2019 20:11:40 GMT
To answer your question, my ranking of The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun is very, very close. I chose The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun because of a few reasons. I think on The Soft Parade, Jim's voice peaked. His voice got stronger after the first three years of singing. He kind of transformed from a dreamy, romantic, psychedelic (?) singer into a more confident and versatile singer. His phrasing was different (better?). He was actually a jazz singer on "Touch Me". Check out his phrasing on "Shaman Blues", the number of different voices used on "The Soft Parade", the confidence displayed on "Tell All The People" and "Runnin' Blue", and even the laugh which opens "Do It". Now, this is in no way a criticism of Jim's vocal work on the first three albums. I love Jim's vocals on those albums, and much of Jim's vocal reputation is based on a lot of those songs. I just think he progressed, took more chances, and his actual voice matured.
Hmm. Interesting. I'll keep this in mind. I did notice an improvement with Jim's vocals on The Soft Parade, but I actually attributed it more to (surprisingly) poor performances on Waiting For The Sun. In regard to "Touch Me", that's always been a bit of a turning point song for me, vocally. He may have sung with a similar delivery on earlier albums, but it's not until after "Touch Me" that I start to make that connection. For instance, I hear a similar delivery in songs ranging from "Blue Sunday" to "Hyacinth House". Though, I hesitate to even bring that up, because I'm no expert on The Doors or Jim's voice. The other reason I prefer The Soft Parade over Waiting For The Sun is because I think it has more life; the songs are livelier. The songs aren't necessarily better, they don't exactly rock (except for "Wild Child"), but the arrangements make the songs more interesting. Also, Robby is more prevalent. Rothchild turned up his guitar! It still isn't where it became on Morrison Hotel and L.A. Woman, but it was starting to transform.
A lot of Doors' fans like Waiting For The Sun because of the more subdued, dreamy, romantic quality.
When I mentioned poor vocal performances on Waiting For The Sun, I was referring specifically to "Summer's Almost Gone" and "Wintertime Love". I'd also say those two songs lack the "liveliness" of The Soft Parade (as a whole). I still can't quite put my finger on it. Is it the tired vocal performances, the arrangements, or do I just think the songs are somewhat boring? Probably a combination of all three. Now, I wouldn't even say I dislike these songs. I listen to them. I enjoy them, a little. Vocally, it just doesn't sound like Jim's trying hard enough on those songs. I get that with that type of material it's a very fine line. You obviously don't want to oversing it. Now, something cool (and unique) that I liked about Waiting For The Sun is the chanting. You can hear it on "The Unknown Soldier", "My Wild Love", and "Five To One". B.E., it's apparent from reading your posts that we share many of the same opinions, or similar opinions. Regarding your comments on Waiting For The Sun, I know exactly where you're coming from and you put it well. As much as I love the Waiting For The Sun album, yes, it is flawed. You mentioned "tired vocal performances". That's one way of putting it. I was trying to be kind in my description above by calling it dreamy or romantic. Maybe "moody" is another term to use. And, yes, some of the songs could be considered boring, especially when comparing them to the brilliant songs that came before and after. I never considered Jim "not trying", but I do think he was more restrained, and, again, that might go back to the material. However, compare the studio versions of "Five To One", "Not To Touch The Earth", and "The Unknown Soldier" to the live versions that exist. There is much more energy on the live versions, both from Jim and the band. I guess you could also blame Paul Rothchild a little bit. He produced Waiting For The Sun and was responsible for the final sound, the final product.
He's where I do disagree with you a little. I'm not a fan of the chanting. I want to like "Five To One" so much, but it's the "get together one more time" part that I dislike. It brings the song down. And, if I had to eliminate one song from The Doors' catalogue, "My Wild Love" would be the first to go. That and "Horse Latitudes". Easily. Sorry, kds.
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Post by B.E. on Jul 25, 2019 21:32:30 GMT
He's where I do disagree with you a little. I'm not a fan of the chanting. I want to like "Five To One" so much, but it's the "get together one more time" part that I dislike. It brings the song down. And, if I had to eliminate one song from The Doors' catalogue, "My Wild Love" would be the first to go. That and "Horse Latitudes". Easily. Sorry, kds. I imagine the chanting has its detractors. Would I have wanted to hear it on all their albums? Heck no. One is enough. I just like it as a recurring theme. That "get together one more time" chant instantly reminded me of AC/DC! Sing it - "dirty deeds done dirt cheap!" Hey, "My Wild Love" cracked my top 5 favorite songs on the album, too. I'll concede, it's repetitive. Btw, I will compare studio vs live versions at some point. I haven't yet. Last time I heard Absolutely Live was about 10 years ago! And, those are the only live recordings I've heard, I believe.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 26, 2019 17:46:09 GMT
I remember when this first aired on VH1. It was such a thrill to see Ray, Robby, and John playing together again. Damn, I miss Ray...
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Post by kds on Jul 26, 2019 17:51:24 GMT
I remember when this first aired on VH1. It was such a thrill to see Ray, Robby, and John playing together again. Damn, I miss Ray...
I remember that, and have a DVD of the show. I think they did it to promote the Doors tribute album Stoned Immaculate. Although considering the album featured one or more living Doors on every track, it was almost like a new project rather than a standard tribute. Or, maybe just a much better executed Stars and Stripes.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 26, 2019 18:02:09 GMT
I remember when this first aired on VH1. It was such a thrill to see Ray, Robby, and John playing together again. Damn, I miss Ray...
I remember that, and have a DVD of the show. I think they did it to promote the Doors tribute album Stoned Immaculate. Although considering the album featured one or more living Doors on every track, it was almost like a new project rather than a standard tribute. Or, maybe just a much better executed Stars and Stripes. Yeah, it was different for a band to be playing on their own tribute album (like our Beach Boys on Stars & Stripes), but I liked it! There's some good stuff on Stoned Immaculate, but I don't think the album did as well as they expected. Tribute albums can be tough. I haven't listened to Stoned Immaculate for awhile. I'll have to give it another spin.
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