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Post by carllove on Aug 17, 2021 18:57:47 GMT
I'm not sure how air support would have really helped considering how things are going down. Afghan forces have largely laid down their weapons peacefully from what I've read. Air support would have assured that those who wanted to leave could have, if the Taliban tried to prevent it. There would have been no need for people to hang off of airplanes, plunging to their deaths due to fear. Trump also planned on gradually having those who had helped the US, as well as US Citizens, leave before the troops. Not sure who had their heads up their bu**'s in this case. It is a tragic situation. Biden saying he would take blame, then blaming other's in his "speech" just takes the cake.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 17, 2021 20:17:13 GMT
Personally I don't believe a Trump administration would have handled things much/any better. Obviously there's no way to know, but they weren't exactly known for great communication and organization with other international moves (such as announcing withdrawals publicly via social media before discussing them with the Cabinet or appropriate officials).
I get the partisan appeal of "our guy would've done better," and I know Trump still has a lot of fans. And obviously the situation was bungled so, so badly, there is more room for someone else doing better than doing worse...
But it really does beg the question: how did they not notice the Afghan army deserting in the weeks leading up to Kabul, and fail to organize this effort ahead of time? (Be clear, my serious doubts about fmr Pres Trump don't mean I think Pres Biden has been doing well. I'm a relatively equal-opportunity skeptic.)
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 18, 2021 12:05:36 GMT
Sad, funny, typical, and a nice reminder how the public's opinions sometimes ought not be taken very seriously. This new Reuters poll says:
- 50% of Americans "totally support" sending combat troops back into Afghanistan - 61% of Americans "totally support" completing the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan on schedule - 68% of Americans "totally agree" that the Afghanistan war was going to end badly no matter what - 51% of Americans "totally agree" it would have been worth it to leave troops in Afghanistan for another year
That means there are people who totally support sending troops back AND withdrawing, who support staying the course while knowing it can't end well. In other words, these are nonsensical opinions from some people. (They could at least have moderated to the "somewhat" answers...)
What's funnier is over 70% of people claim to be "totally familiar" with the 20-year history of the war and the plans for withdrawal. I call bullshit on that, too. I'll bet 70% of the people can't find Afghanistan on a map or explain why we attacked in the first place.
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Post by carllove on Aug 18, 2021 13:14:09 GMT
Sad, funny, typical, and a nice reminder how the public's opinions sometimes ought not be taken very seriously. This new Reuters poll says:
- 50% of Americans "totally support" sending combat troops back into Afghanistan - 61% of Americans "totally support" completing the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan on schedule - 68% of Americans "totally agree" that the Afghanistan war was going to end badly no matter what - 51% of Americans "totally agree" it would have been worth it to leave troops in Afghanistan for another year
That means there are people who totally support sending troops back AND withdrawing, who support staying the course while knowing it can't end well. In other words, these are nonsensical opinions from some people. (They could at least have moderated to the "somewhat" answers...)
What's funnier is over 70% of people claim to be "totally familiar" with the 20-year history of the war and the plans for withdrawal. I call bullshit on that, too. I'll bet 70% of the people can't find Afghanistan on a map or explain why we attacked in the first place.
Well, my daughter was only 5 in 2001, so I can see how people her age may not know why we invaded Afghanistan, but I do. Trump had a plan that did not involve withdrawing the military before civilians, or doing it during "fighting season". He had an agreement with the Taliban and a plan to use air support to ensure that those agreements would be honored. Biden in his hell bent to do everything the opposite of how Trump did it, is responsible for this mess, no matter how much he tries to lay blame on others. He is the Commander in Chief, but thank goodness he received all of those draft deferrals during the Vietnam War, because he never learned the concept of "No Man Left Behind". He is an imbecile and a disgrace. My heart goes out to all of the US Citizens and Afghans that helped us, who have not made it to the airport in Kabul, because they are now having to trust the Taliban to help get them out of the country, and I fear it's going to turn out like the parable of the scorpion and the frog.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 18, 2021 13:35:04 GMT
I don't mean to argue about it and don't begrudge anyone their politics, but it's worth noting you've said we currently have to trust the Taliban, and yet Trump's plan also included negotiations with the Taliban and required trusting them, too. And in either case, I think it's safe to say the U.S. military would have (or will) blow the hell out of them if they significantly interfere with our evacuation. Our 5,000 or so troops there now, plus air support from a base in the region (of which we have several, e.g. Oman, UAE), would be enough to do significant damage.
But I don't think the Taliban is stupid enough to restart a fight even as we're leaving them with exactly what they wanted, which is full control of Afghanistan and access to all the goodies we've left behind.
I do think they'll at best oppress and more likely kill those Afghanis who cooperated with us, but whom we'll leave behind. And regardless of talking points by any politicians, I think it's inevitable that there are going to be (and would have been under Trump, too) many of those. (By the way, I looked up the stats by year. Interesting. The ones we're talking about are the "SIVs," Special Immigrant Visas. It is true they dropped dramatically once Trump got into office, but only compared to the very late Obama years. They remained far higher than the earlier Obama years or Bush years. Some of that would have to do with the fact that Afghanistan was more under control until those latter Obama years, so I assume more people were trying to flee by then, and through the Trump years.)
On that point, I think it's to America's great shame that we're willing to employ and count on locals for support in the field, but not make it a simple and guaranteed process that any who want to emigrate to the US can do so. If you've vetted someone to give you dependable military/logistical information in the field, I think you can reasonably count on them not to become a suicide bomber or mass shooter in a much richer country where they would find higher wages by far even in what many of us consider the worst jobs (and thus would presumably--as is very often true of immigrants--be thankful for the opportunity).
EDIT - I do want to clarify, because I think people can be really "all or nothing / my team or your team" on this kind of thing: the withdrawal was bungled horribly. I'm not defending the president in that at all, even though I do think withdrawing is probably the best of what are only bad options (which the previous two presidents said, and the previous president began acting upon). I think we should've left more or less right when we toppled the Taliban, frankly. Things would have gone badly afterward, just as they're going to go badly now. But we either choose to impose our will on what we see as "backward" countries, or we don't. And I don't see where Afghanistan is that important strategically to engage in that kind of super-expensive enterprise, especially when they mostly don't want us there and have a long history of opposing and waiting-out would-be colonizers or occupiers. I DO think the outcome was/is/always will be inevitable.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 18, 2021 13:50:49 GMT
btw I'd like to take a moment to point out how nice it is to be able to have discussions with disagreements that don't devolve into "you're a terrorist if you think that!" and "you're no better than a Nazi!" etc., as has been the case on occasion elsewhere.
The frequent posters on this board don't really see eye-to-eye on politics, and yet I don't think it has ever sunk to that kind of personal attack or even blanket statements about "the other side." We don't actually get into politics all that often, but when we do, it's fine.
I really appreciate that. We're all really here to discuss music, and especially Beach Boys music, so it is always a shame if other things end up causing rifts and bad feelings.
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Post by carllove on Aug 18, 2021 15:44:35 GMT
btw I'd like to take a moment to point out how nice it is to be able to have discussions with disagreements that don't devolve into "you're a terrorist if you think that!" and "you're no better than a Nazi!" etc., as has been the case on occasion elsewhere.
The frequent posters on this board don't really see eye-to-eye on politics, and yet I don't think it has ever sunk to that kind of personal attack or even blanket statements about "the other side." We don't actually get into politics all that often, but when we do, it's fine.
I really appreciate that. We're all really here to discuss music, and especially Beach Boys music, so it is always a shame if other things end up causing rifts and bad feelings.
I appreciate the opportunity as well to state my case, without being accused of being a racist or a "Q Anon" follower! Beach Boys fans are cool that way!
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 18, 2021 15:57:08 GMT
Sadly not all BBs fans are cool that way, but I definitely think the ones hanging out here are (as well as many who aren't hanging out here , too).
The presidential campaign of '15-'16 really soured the online world against one another, including BBs boards in some cases. Unfortunately it never seemed to get any better, and if anything, it got worse. The nastiness is a huge turn-off for me, and it really depresses, me to be honest.
Personally I see too much common sense in almost every political ideology to think they're inherently/entirely stupid or evil, and too much good in most people (including of almost every political ideology) to think they're all stupid or evil--even when I think they're wrong. And I also see too much wrong with all those ideologies, parties, and politicians to give any of them too much credit as "the right way."
I was not and am not a fan of Pres Trump at all, but that said, I grew up in what is now VERY strong pro-Trump country; I know plenty of people (including online and in real life, including relatives) who voted for and support him. I know they're not all brainwashed, stupid, or evil. And I'm friends with too many smart and well meaning progressives (including some REALLY far left ones!) to think they're all brainwashed, stupid, or evil.
Anyway, it's great having you chime in here, carllove.
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Post by B.E. on Aug 19, 2021 23:32:01 GMT
Sad, funny, typical, and a nice reminder how the public's opinions sometimes ought not be taken very seriously. This new Reuters poll says:
- 50% of Americans "totally support" sending combat troops back into Afghanistan - 61% of Americans "totally support" completing the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan on schedule - 68% of Americans "totally agree" that the Afghanistan war was going to end badly no matter what - 51% of Americans "totally agree" it would have been worth it to leave troops in Afghanistan for another year
That means there are people who totally support sending troops back AND withdrawing, who support staying the course while knowing it can't end well. In other words, these are nonsensical opinions from some people. (They could at least have moderated to the "somewhat" answers...)
What's funnier is over 70% of people claim to be "totally familiar" with the 20-year history of the war and the plans for withdrawal. I call bullshit on that, too. I'll bet 70% of the people can't find Afghanistan on a map or explain why we attacked in the first place.
The founding fathers strike again! Seriously, though, who are the 16% who TOTALLY OPPOSE 'America evacuating Afghans who helped US forces to the United States'? That's seriously messed up. Those nearly entirely political responses (from Republicans and Democrats) near the end were a real hoot, too.
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Post by B.E. on Aug 20, 2021 0:14:10 GMT
I wish I had a greater knowledge of the topic, as it's been on my mind. Frankly, I'm quite conflicted and haven't made up my mind on much of any of it. I'm pretty libertarian-minded, so I sympathize with the "bring our troops home" sentiment, but (for better or worse) we've been involved in Afghanistan for decades. We've been involved all over the world for over 100 years. Whether or not we think we should have is irrelevant now. We were (and are). And I think political positions and decisions should be made based on those realities. To me, the back-and-forth about how Trump and Biden's withdraws would have played out differently is largely beside the point...they both were in favor of withdrawing. And...and this one really drives me up the wall...they were both in favor of announcing to the world (and so the enemy) the exact moment in time we'd be leaving! What is up with that? Didn't Obama do this, too, near the end of his 2nd term? Anyway, I appreciate the position that whether we left now, or 3 months from now, or 3 years from now, the outcome likely would have been the same. And, I'm also certainly not in favor of continuing a mistake...just because. But, that's the thing, unlike Biden (who, granted, has access to infinitely more information than me!), I'm not convinced we were making a mistake. You can point to the Afghan security forces putting up no resistance as justification for leaving, but consider just how valuable and effective those U.S. troops, in relatively small numbers for the past 6 or 7 years, were. Is it really in America's (or the Western world's, for that matter) best interest that we just bailed? (Like I said, I don't know the answer to that. I think there are many pros and cons and unknowns.)
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 20, 2021 0:35:16 GMT
Love that post.
1. I like that you say you don't know. Does any of us? Can any of us? Honestly, not really. And related...
2. Love the getting away from team sports and toward personal opinion. It's so easy to say "I hate what X is doing," and the natural response often isn't "here's what I think about that," but "well Y would've been worse!" It immediately goes to the scripted, rehearsed, repeated garbage that the propagandists spout. It is so easy, so appealing, to jump on every failure of "them" and to over-identify with "us," even if it's just schadenfreude (not actual agreement or opinion).
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Post by kds on Aug 20, 2021 13:14:23 GMT
btw I'd like to take a moment to point out how nice it is to be able to have discussions with disagreements that don't devolve into "you're a terrorist if you think that!" and "you're no better than a Nazi!" etc., as has been the case on occasion elsewhere.
The frequent posters on this board don't really see eye-to-eye on politics, and yet I don't think it has ever sunk to that kind of personal attack or even blanket statements about "the other side." We don't actually get into politics all that often, but when we do, it's fine.
I really appreciate that. We're all really here to discuss music, and especially Beach Boys music, so it is always a shame if other things end up causing rifts and bad feelings.
I couldn't agree more. It's kind of sad that we've somewhat lost the ability as a people to maybe listen to other points of view, or even just politely agree to disagree. The 2016 election cycle you mentioned was especially ugly. I'll admit that I voted for Donald Trump, and man, I was called all sorts of stuff while playing in an old Sandbox. I consider myself a bit of a moderate Conservative, so I'd actually probably be called a RINO by some of my more far right friends / family. But, I commented today to share something I found interesting. I have a relative who shall remain nameless who always took offense to the comparisons of Trump to Hitler, and I think rightfully so, that was a little silly. She would say that it's disrespectful those who suffered the Holocaust, and she's right. Same person, now four or five years later, posts a picture on Facebook today from the Holocaust making a stupid comparison between showing proof of vaccination to the rounding up of Jewish people. I just hate the world today.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 20, 2021 16:36:39 GMT
It's always worth following stories that the public has lost interest in after other things come around to distract, or about which conclusions are drawn before the evidence is in. According to Reuters (as mainstream/centrist a news outlet as I think you'll find), the FBI has found "scant evidence" that the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol was a coordinated effort to break in and overturn the election. Not no evidence, but scant evidence. Look, I think every single individual who broke into the Capitol should be arrested, charged, and if found guilty, prosecuted. My stance on mass demonstrations and protests is pretty well established after the post-Floyd protests, riots, and destruction. I do think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I also believe Trump and various figures bear some responsibility/blame for their rhetoric. But the narrative that this was some sophisticated would-be coup is absurd. The way I see it, this was a crowd of generally angry people who were riled up with delusions and made really stupid choices that day (which is awfully similar to what you could say about hundreds or thousands of people from summer '20).
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Post by B.E. on Aug 21, 2021 2:05:43 GMT
This is a...flexible...opinion piece by Mike Pence - Biden Broke Our Deal With The Taliban. It sort of bends time. Here's what underpins it: Shortly after taking office Biden announced that U.S. forces would remain in Afghanistan an additional 4 months. Immediately thereafter the Taliban retaliated by launching a major offensive and seizing Kabul.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 21, 2021 11:57:22 GMT
We are inching toward our November ballot initiative about something that got a ton of attention in summer 2020 as an idea and slogan, and has since been assumed to be in effect although it isn't: defunding the police.
Specifically, there is a ballot initiative asking Minneapolis voters, "Shall the Minneapolis City Charter be amended to strike and replace the Police Department with a Department of Public Safety which could include licensed peace officers (police officers) if necessary, with administrative authority to be consistent with other city departments to fulfill its responsibilities for public safety?"
There has been a bitter fight about whether to include an explanatory note and what it should say. The mayor and some activist groups wanted the note, because it would clarify the amendment would affect the role of police chief, remove the minimum number of required police officers, and changes the lines of authority from the mayor having control to the city council having control over police. They claim city council and other activists are trying to mislead the public and hide facts about the proposal with the current language and lack of explanation.
The mayor vetoed the language twice, but was finally overridden last night, just hours before the final language was legally required to be submitted to be on the ballot.
I strongly oppose the ballot measure. Minneapolis Police Dept has a history of serious problems, and I'm fully in favor of investigations and improvements. But I can't approve of disbanding a real but flawed force for some phantom solution not yet defined, much less created. And I'd rather have a department report to a single person, the mayor (whoever he or she is at any given time) than under the control of the 13-person city council (whoever they may be at any given time). It's dissolves direct responsibility and reduces efficiency. And if I don't like the results, I can easily vote against the mayor; I can only vote against 1/13th of the city council (and my council member might even be on the side I'm on, meaning I have no vote against the department's direction under the proposal).
What's more, I would not trust this specific city council to do anything.
This ballot measure concerns me more than any single election I can recall. Realistically speaking, whether the Republican or Democratic candidate wins this or that office is of little importance to my daily life. But dissolving the police for some undefined, to-be-named-later department that may or may not include any police and reports to the city council? That matters a lot.
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