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Post by kds on Aug 21, 2019 12:21:14 GMT
My opinion on Brian's solo career was formed a long time ago and it hasn't changed very much since then. When the rumblings of a Brian Wilson solo album surfaced in the mid-1980's, I was behind it. I mean, what the heck, The Beach Boys weren't doing much, Brian certainly LOOKED like he could record a solo album, and I thought that NOW was finally the time for Brian to stretch out and record the brilliant music that didn't quite fit into the Beach Boys' blueprint. You know, an album full of SMiLE, "Til I Die", and Love You-type tracks along with new ground-breaking music.
Well, I'm still waiting. For someone as prolific a songwriter as Brian Wilson was, I figured he could easily - EASILY - fill an album worth of great stuff. I knew the voice was different/changed, I had no idea what kind of production to expect, and I really didn't care about the subject matter of the songs. What I did expect was incomparable songwriting, songs with that indelible Brian Wilson stamp. And, in my opinion, that never quite surfaced.
All of Brian's solo albums have a sameness to them, at least mathematically. Each solo album has two or three keepers, two or three good songs, and the remaining songs? Covers, re-recordings, songs prominently written by collaborators, and songs that are just...meh. The most disappointing aspect of Brian's solo recordings is the absence of the magic. There is something in every Beach Boys' song that Brian wrote from 1961-1980 that has the undeniable BW quality - that spark, that magic, that special feeling. I didn't/don't find that in most of Brian's solo music. I find Brian consciously or subconsciously trying to duplicate or channel his previous work, and frankly I think he came up short.
After being somewhat frustrated with each successive solo album, I started to wonder why it was decided for Brian to continue his solo recording career. Yes, at the beginning I got it. Did anyone deserve a shot at recording solo albums more than Brian Wilson? No. But it then became obvious that he barely had enough new material to fill a solo album, and I started to give up hope. How many times can you get your hopes up high with all of the hype and publicity, only to become disappointed? I had it with the tribute albums, the covers albums, and the live albums. That was just "product", lame attempts at keeping a solo career alive. Eventually, I was turned off with the Brian Wilson solo career and wished that he would return to recording with The Beach Boys. Let Brian contribute his six or seven good songs and fill in the rest of the album with songs from Mike, Al, and Bruce (and David on TWGMTR). If that's all that Brian had to share, why try to stretch it out over an entire solo album. And I won't even get into an entire album of Brian Wilson lead vocals.
You're going to have a hard time convincing me that over the last 30+ years, Brian only wanted to record with The Beach Boys in 2012 and 2013. And speaking of the potential followup to TWGMTR, things should've been worked out. There are a lot of people to blame on that one, not just Mike. It's probably too late now. The game is just about over. Yeah, I still hold out hope for one more Beach Boys with Brian album, or one more single, or one more concert. But I don't think the disappointment will ever fade away, the years of 1993 - present, when Brian woulda/shoulda/coulda recorded albums, several albums with The Beach Boys. Such a waste.
Considering Brian started his solo career so late in this career, I don't really think he had that groundbreaking music left in him. Plus, how many legacy artists really continue to consistently release quality music late into their careers. While it lacks the genius of his 60s and early 70s work, and even the quirkiness of his Love You era which many people seem to find endearing for reasons that escape me, I think there's a lot to like on Brian's solo albums. But.........like I said above, a couple Mike, or even Al songs, sprinkled in, could've really elevated some of those albums.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 21, 2019 13:36:06 GMT
Agree, then why a SOLO career? Why put more pressure on him to carry an entire album with songwriting, production, and singing? And then the touring? Well, we know now that he did get a lot of...help. But at what cost? By that I mean, how successful was Brian's solo recording career? And I realize successful is a subjective term to use. I disagree that a solo career put more pressure on him than rejoining the Beach Boys would have. As you state, he had a lot of help. The whole operation was designed to support him. Is that how any fan would describe Brian and The Beach Boys' relationship... ever? Think about it - did Brian and The Beach Boys ever really figure out how to co-exist once Brian lost control over the group (and his mental health began to decline). I don't think so. It's been an awkward fit ever since, often exasperated by group infighting. Pressure-wise, I also think a reunited Beach Boys trump any solo release or tour. In that regard, Brian doesn't have to live up to his past glories in such a direct manner. I think that Brian having a solo career is a success in itself. Honestly, I think that The Beach Boys gave up on Brian (as a vital member of the group). So, if Brian hadn't had a solo career and were strictly confined to releasing music through the group, then we'd only have a small fraction of it. Consider that he still would have needed co-writers and co-producers - the number of decision-makers have only increased! I can't argue that The Beach Boys never "figured it out" when Brian lost control. It was one debacle after debacle, questions and more questions, and several missed opportunities. It would be disingenuous to say that things would ever be different, that things would ever change. I guess 2012 proves that theory. But after 1995, I thought there was a chance. With Dennis Wilson out of the picture, with Dr. Landy out of the picture, with drugs and alcohol out the picture, and with a new team of doctors and more effective medication, yes, I thought there was a chance. It appeared that all of the things that were working against the group were now being rectified.
Brian was receiving a lot of help with his solo career, but how did that work out? Yes, the albums that did come out probably would've been a disaster without the assistance of collaborators, but take a look at the studio albums. BW1988, Imagination, Gettin' In Over My Head, That Lucky Old Sun, and No Pier Pressure - Inconsistent? Mediocre? Disappointing? Pseudo-solo albums under the veil of Brian Wilson's name? He just didn't have enough quality material, or couldn't come up with enough quality material, thus bringing in the collaborators. I don't think the collaborators merely helped finish the songs, I think they were contributing their own parts. And the more they contribute, the less it becomes a Brian Wilson record. I would've rather had five or six really strong BW songs than a watered down album.
I don't subscribe to the theory that Brian's solo career put less pressure on him than the occasional recording of a Beach Boys' album, or even the occasional touring with them (again latter day when certain obstacles were removed). There would've been less pressure to come up with an entire album, less pressure to promote it via interviews, and less pressure to come up with something new. As it turned out, Brian's solo career consisted of him recording what basically sound like Beach Boys' albums without the Beach Boys. It's 20/20 hindsight now (although I felt this way many years ago), but if Brian was going to release a number of Beach Boys-sounding albums, then why not just/also include their voices - and a few of their songs - too. Does anybody think that deep inside, Brian never wanted to leave The Beach Boys, and always wanted to record with them? I do.
Do we have a "beating a dead horse" emoticon?
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Post by B.E. on Aug 21, 2019 16:32:34 GMT
I can't argue that The Beach Boys never "figured it out" when Brian lost control. It was one debacle after debacle, questions and more questions, and several missed opportunities. It would be disingenuous to say that things would ever be different, that things would ever change. I guess 2012 proves that theory. But after 1995, I thought there was a chance. With Dennis Wilson out of the picture, with Dr. Landy out of the picture, with drugs and alcohol out the picture, and with a new team of doctors and more effective medication, yes, I thought there was a chance. It appeared that all of the things that were working against the group were now being rectified.
Precisely. And if I were a fan then, I think I would have felt the same way. I would have been hopeful. In hindsight, though, it seems the issues between Brian and the group were insurmountable. As I stated previously, I think the group gave up on Brian. They failed to adapt. It's almost like they'd call Brian in every album or two and hand the keys back over to him (like it was 1965), but when Brian inevitably failed to live up to that expectation, they'd take the keys back (often driving off in a completely different direction). In other words, Landy may have been gone, but Mike and Carl weren't, and Brian still had problems. Why only record a few Paley songs before killing the project and moving on to Stars and Stripes? Well, I think I've already answered that. Brian was receiving a lot of help with his solo career, but how did that work out? Yes, the albums that did come out probably would've been a disaster without the assistance of collaborators, but take a look at the studio albums. BW1988, Imagination, Gettin' In Over My Head, That Lucky Old Sun, and No Pier Pressure - Inconsistent? Mediocre? Disappointing? Pseudo-solo albums under the veil of Brian Wilson's name? He just didn't have enough quality material, or couldn't come up with enough quality material, thus bringing in the collaborators. I don't think the collaborators merely helped finish the songs, I think they were contributing their own parts. And the more they contribute, the less it becomes a Brian Wilson record. I would've rather had five or six really strong BW songs than a watered down album.
Well, I think Brian Wilson and That Lucky Old Sun are very good albums. I don't consider them inconsistent, mediocre, or disappointing. Really, only Gettin' In Over My Head checks all those boxes. I also don't really consider them "pseudo-solo albums". Maybe it's not so much that Brian's solo albums sound like The Beach Boys, but that The Beach Boys sound like Brian Wilson. It's his sound after all. I don't deny that Brian's collaborators left a significant mark on his solo albums (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse), but I don't see how that would change if he had been releasing Beach Boys albums instead. Those albums wouldn't have been any less watered down. He'd still have outside collaborators and he'd also be contending with Mike, Carl, Al, Bruce, and whoever else was part of the group's orbit at the time. I get that you're eliminating what you consider weaker Brian songs in favor of (potentially) stronger albums, but what guarantee do we have that any Beach Boys albums would have actually materialized? And if a few did, would we get all of Brian's strongest material and in its best form? Unlikely, unfortunately. This goes back to my previous reply, that at some point the group felt they knew better (particularly Mike and Carl). I don't subscribe to the theory that Brian's solo career put less pressure on him than the occasional recording of a Beach Boys' album, or even the occasional touring with them (again latter day when certain obstacles were removed). There would've been less pressure to come up with an entire album, less pressure to promote it via interviews, and less pressure to come up with something new.
I'd agree if Brian were putting out albums' worth of original material on a regular basis, but he hasn't nor has he been expected to. He's only put out 5 such albums in over 30 years, how much more occasional would his recordings with The Beach Boys have been? I hope not much. When he didn't have material, he was accommodated (post-Landy). Brian's endured interviews both as a solo artist and a Beach Boy. Personally, I think it's unnecessary, but, if anything, I'd say Brian would have been more likely to get roped into more promotional events as a Beach Boy (assuming in this alternate universe Brian is actually significantly involved in their new releases - as would be necessary to include his 5 or 6 best songs at any given time). As it turned out, Brian's solo career consisted of him recording what basically sound like Beach Boys' albums without the Beach Boys. It's 20/20 hindsight now (although I felt this way many years ago), but if Brian was going to release a number of Beach Boys-sounding albums, then why not just/also include their voices - and a few of their songs - too. Does anybody think that deep inside, Brian never wanted to leave The Beach Boys, and always wanted to record with them? I do.
Again, I think it was easier for Brian to release albums as a solo artist because he didn't have to deal with the dysfunction of the Beach Boys (who were hardly a model of productivity). SJS, when you say "deep inside", to me, that's underneath the effects of drug abuse and symptoms of mental illness. In that regard, I think Brian has always wanted to have a successful, productive career in music. I think he's always loved the Beach Boys and never wanted to give it up, but at the same time he was always open to outside projects as well. Unfortunately, that's not the world Brian lives in. There are many quotes from Brian that speak to his difficulty in dealing with the group (as well as his difficulty in creating music at all). In this world, I think Brian waffles between wanting to work with the group and wanting to be a solo artist. I don't think it's one or the other. Paley commented on this in the mid-90s. By the way, it's really interesting to ponder who Brian is at his core (whatever that means). Think about the fact that he sung nearly all of the vocals on his albums from Brian Wilson - Getting In Over My Head. Seemingly, this can't be tied to any specific collaborator; therefore, it's Brian's decision. Where did this come from? I think the same part of him that was rerecording over the group's vocals on Pet Sounds informed this decision. He wanted to be in control. Which, consequently, led to major problems with the Beach Boys when he was no longer as capable as he once was.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 21, 2019 17:47:54 GMT
One thing I do want to mention, as it is often used as a critique of Brian’s solo material: the use of outside collaborators. I think it bears mentioning that Beach Boys—including those not named Brian Wilson—have leaned heavily on songwriting collaborators since the ‘60s. People like Dennis and Mike and Al, how many solo songs do they have to their names? Dennis, if you include his Beach Boys and “solo” output, has I think three songs. Al, I think has two. Mike has a few, but not many. Carl—does he have any? Conversely, these people penned or co-wrote songs without Brian Wilson that were recorded by the Beach Boys as originals (e.g., I am not including true covers). (To be clear, some ALSO wrote with Brian. But my point is, non-Brians wrote with them, or they wrote in lieu of any Beach Boys. So it’s not “a Brian thing.”) Ron Altbach Randy Bachman Randy Bishop Bob Burchman Geoffrey Cushing-Murray Daryl Dragon Craig Fall Gregg Jakobson Lynda Jardine Robert White Johnson Stephen Kalinich Karen Lamm Steve Levine Julian Lindsay Scott McKenzie Terry Melcher Carli Munoz John Phillips Jack Rieley Stan Shapiro Myrna Smith Ed Tuleja With or without Brian, the Beach Boys leaned heavily on songwriting collaborators (as well as instrumental and even sometimes vocal ones), and with or without the Beach Boys, Brian Wilson did the same. Whatever their merits and flaws together or apart, that’s one that doesn’t seem any different either way.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 21, 2019 20:00:50 GMT
Yes, Mike, Carl, and Al relied on collaborators because they weren't great songwriters. Songwriting was rarely their main role in the group - singing and performing was - so who really cared if they had collaborators. I think Dennis, who was a great songwriter, mostly relied on collaborators for lyrics.
But Brian Wilson was a different animal. Almost all the way from 1961 through the 1980's, it was understood that Brian would "handle" the music, and his collaborator would write the lyrics. It would probably be more accurate to say that Brian worked with lyricists rather than collaborators during that time. And, this includes some of his greatest work - the "fun" stuff with Mike Love, Pet Sounds with Tony Asher, SMiLE with Van Dyke Parks, and on and on. Even when Brian started to have his problems, it was more the case of Carl finishing a song than actually writing it. That's why it was so jarring to find out that others were contributing to the writing of the music in Brian's songs. Jeff Lynne wrote the best parts of "Rio Grande", Andy Paley wrote most of "Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight", Joe Thomas wrote significant parts of Imagination. How much did Scott Bennett write of That Lucky Old Sun? And we can see multiple collaborators credited on No Pier Pressure.
Now, one might say (Kapitan?) that it doesn't matter who wrote the song as long as it's good. But that's precisely my point, I didn't/don't think many of Brian's solo songs are that good. And if he - Brian - didn't write the song or most of the song, it wasn't going to be on a par with Brian's previous work. He set a standard, then with his solo career he lowered it. Significantly. But he did it as a solo artist! Was it worth it? The less pressure? To see single after single, album after album tank? How many times OVER THE YEARS did we read an interview with Brian saying that he was experiencing some writer's block. But, I'll be damned if new contracts weren't signed and more solo albums came out. If he didn't have the songs, why did he continue to record full solo albums? Was THAT Brian's decision?
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Post by kds on Aug 21, 2019 20:09:36 GMT
Yes, Mike, Carl, and Al relied on collaborators because they weren't great songwriters. Songwriting was rarely their main role in the group - singing and performing was - so who really cared if they had collaborators. I think Dennis, who was a great songwriter, mostly relied on collaborators for lyrics.
But Brian Wilson was a different animal. Almost all the way from 1961 through the 1980's, it was understood that Brian would "handle" the music, and his collaborator would write the lyrics. It would probably be more accurate to say that Brian worked with lyricists rather than collaborators during that time. And, this includes some of his greatest work - the "fun" stuff with Mike Love, Pet Sounds with Tony Asher, SMiLE with Van Dyke Parks, and on and on. Even when Brian started to have his problems, it was more the case of Carl finishing a song than actually writing it. That's why it was so jarring to find out that others were contributing to the writing of the music in Brian's songs. Jeff Lynne wrote the best parts of "Rio Grande", Andy Paley wrote most of "Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight", Joe Thomas wrote significant parts of Imagination. How much did Scott Bennett write of That Lucky Old Sun? And we can see multiple collaborators credited on No Pier Pressure.
Now, one might say (Kapitan?) that it doesn't matter who wrote the song as long as it's good. But that's precisely my point, I didn't/don't think many of Brian's solo songs are that good. And if he - Brian - didn't write the song or most of the song, it wasn't going to be on a par with Brian's previous work. He set a standard, then with his solo career he lowered it. Significantly. But he did it as a solo artist! Was it worth it? The less pressure? To see single after single, album after album tank? How many times OVER THE YEARS did we read an interview with Brian saying that he was experiencing some writer's block. But, I'll be damned if new contracts weren't signed and more solo albums came out. If he didn't have the songs, why did he continue to record full solo albums? Was THAT Brian's decision?
It's also a little unfair to compare Brian's solo material to his past works. Brian released his first solo album in 1988, over a quarter century into his career. I think it's better to take Brian's solo works as they are, rather than compare them to the standard he set in the 1960s. And I think that about any artist who continues to release music later and later into their career.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 21, 2019 20:16:57 GMT
Just a few quick things. 1. I don’t believe that Brian’s collaborators were only lyrics during the Beach Boys work. Specifically Van Dyke Parks and Smile, I will never believe that was purely Brian on music and VDP on lyrics no matter how many times I hear either say it. If it was, it is a singular work in his entire career. But the studio musicians talk all the time about how if you had a suggestion and he liked it, it made the cut. I think to some extent, it’s mythmaking that Brian created the music from whole cloth, just straight from him imagination, fully formed. I am totally willing to believe he was the primary creative force, the most talented of the lot no matter who else was in the room. But he wasn’t an island, however good that story is. 2. Do you mean Jeff Lynne and “Let It Shine” (in case my question is, where are the best parts of that?) or Andy Paley and “Rio Grande?” 3. I don’t think Brian set a high standard in the Beach Boys and then a lower one as a solo artist. I think he just failed to consistently make as good of work. It’s not like people say “well, from now on, I’m just going to put out a bunch of garbage.” (At least not most people. Maybe Lou Reed did, on occasion!) As KDS said, nobody—or at least almost nobody—maintains their peak level of pop music in their later years. It just doesn’t happen. 4. Why continue to record full solo albums? I dunno, but I’m glad he did. Those albums aren’t great, but they’ve almost always got something good. Smile, TLOS, and Gershwin were easily among my favorite albums of those years, and I liked NPP quite a bit as well. And usually I’m not a big fan of legacy artists’ modern work! I don’t think anyone with both honesty and working ears would argue he has been as successful (quality-wise) as a solo artist as he was as a Beach Boy. I just don’t think there has to be much controversy or conspiracy theories or anything about it. He got old. The times passed him by. He’s somewhat broken mentally and physically. These things add up.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 21, 2019 20:19:54 GMT
Yes, Mike, Carl, and Al relied on collaborators because they weren't great songwriters. Songwriting was rarely their main role in the group - singing and performing was - so who really cared if they had collaborators. I think Dennis, who was a great songwriter, mostly relied on collaborators for lyrics.
But Brian Wilson was a different animal. Almost all the way from 1961 through the 1980's, it was understood that Brian would "handle" the music, and his collaborator would write the lyrics. It would probably be more accurate to say that Brian worked with lyricists rather than collaborators during that time. And, this includes some of his greatest work - the "fun" stuff with Mike Love, Pet Sounds with Tony Asher, SMiLE with Van Dyke Parks, and on and on. Even when Brian started to have his problems, it was more the case of Carl finishing a song than actually writing it. That's why it was so jarring to find out that others were contributing to the writing of the music in Brian's songs. Jeff Lynne wrote the best parts of "Rio Grande", Andy Paley wrote most of "Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight", Joe Thomas wrote significant parts of Imagination. How much did Scott Bennett write of That Lucky Old Sun? And we can see multiple collaborators credited on No Pier Pressure.
Now, one might say (Kapitan?) that it doesn't matter who wrote the song as long as it's good. But that's precisely my point, I didn't/don't think many of Brian's solo songs are that good. And if he - Brian - didn't write the song or most of the song, it wasn't going to be on a par with Brian's previous work. He set a standard, then with his solo career he lowered it. Significantly. But he did it as a solo artist! Was it worth it? The less pressure? To see single after single, album after album tank? How many times OVER THE YEARS did we read an interview with Brian saying that he was experiencing some writer's block. But, I'll be damned if new contracts weren't signed and more solo albums came out. If he didn't have the songs, why did he continue to record full solo albums? Was THAT Brian's decision?
It's also a little unfair to compare Brian's solo material to his past works. Brian released his first solo album in 1988, over a quarter century into his career. I think it's better to take Brian's solo works as they are, rather than compare them to the standard he set in the 1960s. And I think that about any artist who continues to release music later and later into their career. I think it is fair to compare Brian's solo material to his past works because he (or whoever, and that was the original argument/point) made a conscious choice. He/they/whomever CHOSE to go the solo career route. As I have been saying ad nauseam, Brian could've shortened or narrowed the "comparison gap" by A) continuing to record with the Beach Boys, thus utilizing their voices which were superior to his, and B) not recording/releasing solo albums when he didn't have enough quality material to fill an entire album in the first place.
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Post by lonelysummer on Aug 21, 2019 20:20:23 GMT
There's always gotta be someone keeping Brian away from the Beach Boys. In the 80's, it was Dr. Eugene Landy. He thought Brian was going to be a huge superstar as a solo artist. Well, that didn't quite work out the way he had hoped. It seems like what Brian has done in more recent years has always been someone else's idea; he did the film with Don Was, and recorded the songs Was had picked out for him to do. Van Dyke Parks asked him to sing on Orange Crate Art, so he did it. Meanwhile, Brian was recording new material with Andy Paley, but Melinda didn't like it, so he did Imagination instead. And it took a lot of prodding from Darian to get Brian to revisit the Smile material. I'm not saying all this is bad; but I still wonder what music Brian would be doing if it was completely up to him? I'm honestly not sure if his music would be that much different. I mean, for as inconsistent as it is, Brian's solo catalog still has a lot to like for a guy in his 6th decade. Although it's worth noting that the most consistent album of material (IMHO) that he's released in the last 20 years had input from Mike Love (TWGMTR). I look back over Brian's solo career, and I think "yes I like IJWMFTT" - but that was all remakes; "I like OCA" - yes, but that was Van Dyke Parks' songs; "I liked BWPS" - yes, but that was ...more remakes. Anyone detect a pattern here? The first album from 1988 is still the best in terms of new original songs from Brian and his collaborators. TLOS is a very strong album - but how much of that was Brian, and how much was Scott Bennett? When I watched the DVD where they are discussing the songs, I felt like Brian may have had the seed of an idea for a song, and then Scott fleshed it out, turned it into a full song. I think the reason Brian was kept in the solo career was Melinda. Yes, I said it. Kill me! I said earlier that I have never heard Melinda say anything nice about Dennis or Carl. I'll extend that to the rest of the Beach Boys family. She knows Brian is seen as the genius of the group, and she wants to keep the spotlight on him. She tolerates Al because he's seen as a minor creative figure in the group, plus she's not tone deaf. She knows the man still sounds great! I was an idiot that thought the Beach Boys name would be retired when Carl died, boy was I wrong about that. So why not have more albums of new "Beach Boys" music, some written by Brian and whoever he collaborates with ...Darian, Scott, Mike, Al...instead of album after album of Brian Wilson "solo" music that's not really solo? Man, I wish Carl were still here. He would have somehow resolved the differences between Mike and Brian, and maybe...maybe...we would have gotten more than one new BB's album in 20 years. Or maybe he would have just said "I don't like the songs, Brian, and my back is killing me. See ya later!"
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Post by kds on Aug 21, 2019 20:26:15 GMT
It's also a little unfair to compare Brian's solo material to his past works. Brian released his first solo album in 1988, over a quarter century into his career. I think it's better to take Brian's solo works as they are, rather than compare them to the standard he set in the 1960s. And I think that about any artist who continues to release music later and later into their career. I think it is fair to compare Brian's solo material to his past works because he (or whoever, and that was the original argument/point) made a conscious choice. He/they/whomever CHOSE to go the solo career route. As I have been saying ad nauseam, Brian could've shortened or narrowed the "comparison gap" by A) continuing to record with the Beach Boys, thus utilizing their voices which were superior to his, and B) not recording/releasing solo albums when he didn't have enough quality material to fill an entire album in the first place. Well, I'll have to respectfully disagree as I don't think it's fair, or really logical, to hold an artist to the standard they set when they're in their prime. A. So, if Brian had stayed with The Beach Boys, would it be right to compare any 1990s, 2000s, or 2010s releases with the 1960s or 1970s albums? Frankly, I don't think so. B. Even in their heyday, The Beach Boys were releasing albums that didn't have enough quality material for a full album. Shut Down Vol 2 comes to mind. And it's all subjective about whether or not there was enough quality material. Take NPP for instance, I think most of us will agree that the album could use some trimming, but I don't think we'd ever 100% agree on which songs should be cut.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 21, 2019 20:26:49 GMT
I don’t think Carl would’ve accomplished anything. He certainly didn’t hold them together—and sometimes helped break them apart—while he was alive.
Bands break up. People pursue their own interests (real or perceived). I’m happy to grant that Melinda has had a lot to do with Brian’s solo career and to say I might like it better if she weren’t. But I guess in the end I’m just not that bothered about it. It’s not as if he or The Beach Boys were on some great roll before she came along.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 21, 2019 20:28:31 GMT
Re the “not enough good material for a full album,” I can’t find more than half a dozen BBs albums that don’t contain some songs as bad as the lowlights of Brian’s solo albums. VERY few indeed.
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Post by kds on Aug 21, 2019 20:28:48 GMT
I'm honestly not sure if his music would be that much different. I mean, for as inconsistent as it is, Brian's solo catalog still has a lot to like for a guy in his 6th decade. Although it's worth noting that the most consistent album of material (IMHO) that he's released in the last 20 years had input from Mike Love (TWGMTR). I look back over Brian's solo career, and I think "yes I like IJWMFTT" - but that was all remakes; "I like OCA" - yes, but that was Van Dyke Parks' songs; "I liked BWPS" - yes, but that was ...more remakes. Anyone detect a pattern here? The first album from 1988 is still the best in terms of new original songs from Brian and his collaborators. TLOS is a very strong album - but how much of that was Brian, and how much was Scott Bennett? When I watched the DVD where they are discussing the songs, I felt like Brian may have had the seed of an idea for a song, and then Scott fleshed it out, turned it into a full song. I think the reason Brian was kept in the solo career was Melinda. Yes, I said it. Kill me! I said earlier that I have never heard Melinda say anything nice about Dennis or Carl. I'll extend that to the rest of the Beach Boys family. She knows Brian is seen as the genius of the group, and she wants to keep the spotlight on him. She tolerates Al because he's seen as a minor creative figure in the group, plus she's not tone deaf. She knows the man still sounds great! I was an idiot that thought the Beach Boys name would be retired when Carl died, boy was I wrong about that. So why not have more albums of new "Beach Boys" music, some written by Brian and whoever he collaborates with ...Darian, Scott, Mike, Al...instead of album after album of Brian Wilson "solo" music that's not really solo? Man, I wish Carl were still here. He would have somehow resolved the differences between Mike and Brian, and maybe...maybe...we would have gotten more than one new BB's album in 20 years. Or maybe he would have just said "I don't like the songs, Brian, and my back is killing me. See ya later!" I mostly agree, and all things considered, we're probably lucky we got the one 21st century BB album we got in 2012. Also, even if Brian wasn't overly instrumental in writing the songs credited to him and Scott, or him and Joe, that doesn't really bother me too much. As long as the material is quality material.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 21, 2019 20:33:27 GMT
Just a few quick things. 1. I don’t believe that Brian’s collaborators were only lyrics during the Beach Boys work. Specifically Van Dyke Parks and Smile, I will never believe that was purely Brian on music and VDP on lyrics no matter how many times I hear either say it. If it was, it is a singular work in his entire career. But the studio musicians talk all the time about how if you had a suggestion and he liked it, it made the cut. I think to some extent, it’s mythmaking that Brian created the music from whole cloth, just straight from him imagination, fully formed. I am totally willing to believe he was the primary creative force, the most talented of the lot no matter who else was in the room. But he wasn’t an island, however good that story is. 2. Do you mean Jeff Lynne and “Let It Shine” (in case my question is, where are the best parts of that?) or Andy Paley and “Rio Grande?” 3. I don’t think Brian set a high standard in the Beach Boys and then a lower one as a solo artist. I think he just failed to consistently make as good of work. It’s not like people say “well, from now on, I’m just going to put out a bunch of garbage.” (At least not most people. Maybe Lou Reed did, on occasion!) As KDS said, nobody—or at least almost nobody—maintains their peak level of pop music in their later years. It just doesn’t happen. 4. Why continue to record full solo albums? I dunno, but I’m glad he did. Those albums aren’t great, but they’ve almost always got something good. Smile, TLOS, and Gershwin were easily among my favorite albums of those years, and I liked NPP quite a bit as well. And usually I’m not a big fan of legacy artists’ modern work! I don’t think anyone with both honesty and working ears would argue he has been as successful (quality-wise) as a solo artist as he was as a Beach Boy. I just don’t think there has to be much controversy or conspiracy theories or anything about it. He got old. The times passed him by. He’s somewhat broken mentally and physically. These things add up. 1. Like you alluded to, I'm just going by what I read. It was Van Dyke Parks who is quoted as saying that he didn't write or change a single note of the SMiLE music. I don't know, but Parks can sure be a stickler when it comes to giving people credit - or not.
2. Yes, I meant "Let It Shine". My mistake. I'm out of practice actually discussing BB/BW issues. I'm out of shape!
3. Oh, I absolutely think Brian set a much lower standard as a solo artist. We're talking 30+ years here. He couldn't buy a hit single; hell, he could barely buy a charting single. His albums didn't sell either; as he went on they started to be ignored. Critics weren't as kind. I wouldn't be surprised if many old(er) Beach Boys' fans fell by the wayside, frustrated, confused, bored. And look at the smaller and smaller crowds he has been attracting in concert the last few years. I'm reading reports of half-filled venues.
4. I enjoyed NPP very much, too. That album might be the one exception for me. I rarely pull out his solo albums. I just listen to a solo career-encompassing comp I made.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 21, 2019 20:37:44 GMT
We might be defining “set a lower standard” differently. I think we agree on the end result of the music: it was generally better in The Beach Boys than after. To me, failing to live up to a high standard isn’t setting a low standard, it’s just failing to reach that higher standard. But that’s probably just semantics.
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