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Post by kds on Jan 12, 2022 13:33:01 GMT
I think reality is almost always just a little too nuanced, a little too "a little this, and also a little that," for pretty much any simple narrative.
Brian IS the Beach Boys? False. Brian is just another Beach Boy? False. He didn't succeed without them, but they didn't really ever succeed without him, either. Maybe he could have, and maybe they could have, under different circumstances, but that's unknowable.
As it is, he was the most important guy in the group, I'd say without any question. He was the most talented. If you want to use words like genius, he's the only one you could use it about. But I think it's fair to look at it as that article did: if he's a genius, his genius really only shone brightly while he was invested and embedded in the group.
Couldn't agree more. I've said it before, but I really think after 1967, due to a lot of different factors, we really only saw glimpses of that "genius."
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Jan 12, 2022 13:33:53 GMT
I meant it more like, for the general public, did they ever even hear the false narrative? I'd say most people I've come across who weren't exposed to my incessant blathering about the topic or who weren't music geeks themselves have had no actual stories about the Beach Boys whatsoever, except maybe that they didn't play on their records. (Not in a "Brian was the genius and the others couldn't play" way, but literally thinking they were just a total fabrication.) These people tended not to know any of them or have any real opinions about them other than knowing and either liking or disliking "Surfin USA," "Good Vibrations," "Kokomo," etc. But maybe people know more than I would have guessed...even if what they know isn't true.
I think more along the lines of the general public or people who are more casual music fans, both of which probably don't know a ton about The Beach Boys outside of the hits and maybe Pet Sounds and some of the Christmas songs. But, just anecdotally, I know over the past ten years since I really got super into The Beach Boys, whenever I bring them up to a non diehard, they seem to have some basic knowledge that Brian Wilson was the guy, and that the others are basically the backing band. Edit - When I first starting listening to The Beach Boys, as more of a casual fan in 2006, I was more or less under the impression that Brian ran the show. Of course, this was pretty fresh off the buzz from Brian's taking Pet Sounds on the road and reviving Smile, which were big talking points in music magazines and websites I frequented at the time. That's the perception that was given in the Beatles class I took during college. The teacher started out with you know the Beach Boys right? And pinched his nose to sing a line of Surfin' USA. It got a few laughs then he went onto say how great they actually were, but only really talked about Pet Sounds. It was all about how great Brian was and how he did everything that took three or four people in the Beatles' circle to do. Really no mention of anyone else's contribution and of course it was thrown in how he directed the Wrecking Crew on all those songs. Just think, he's telling that to 100-200 kids every year for who knows how many years now.
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Post by kds on Jan 12, 2022 13:36:49 GMT
I think more along the lines of the general public or people who are more casual music fans, both of which probably don't know a ton about The Beach Boys outside of the hits and maybe Pet Sounds and some of the Christmas songs. But, just anecdotally, I know over the past ten years since I really got super into The Beach Boys, whenever I bring them up to a non diehard, they seem to have some basic knowledge that Brian Wilson was the guy, and that the others are basically the backing band. Edit - When I first starting listening to The Beach Boys, as more of a casual fan in 2006, I was more or less under the impression that Brian ran the show. Of course, this was pretty fresh off the buzz from Brian's taking Pet Sounds on the road and reviving Smile, which were big talking points in music magazines and websites I frequented at the time. That's the perception that was given in the Beatles class I took during college. The teacher started out with you know the Beach Boys right? And pinched his nose to sing a line of Surfin' USA. It got a few laughs then he went onto say how great they actually were, but only really talked about Pet Sounds. It was all about how great Brian was and how he did everything that took three or four people in the Beatles' circle to do. Really no mention of anyone else's contribution and of course it was thrown in how he directed the Wrecking Crew on all those songs. Just think, he's telling that to 100-200 kids every year for who knows how many years now. I had a similar experience in a History of Rock and Roll course I took in college in the late 90s.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 12, 2022 13:40:10 GMT
The one thing I used to read in various articles and on various message boards was how the Beach Boys did, in fact, play their instruments on their early records. So, I began to focus on those songs/albums. Yes, I suppose they were competent, but I struggled to find specific parts that were outstanding or...great. Maybe the fact that the record, the final product, was great should be enough. Hey, they did their job and did it well. They did what Brian asked them to do. I mean, I guess they did but Brian didn't hesitate to replace them with studio musicians as soon as he got the chance.
As musicians, David, Carl, and Bruce could be considered very good musicians. Great? I don't know. I'm not a musician. But, I do sometimes wonder how easy it would've been to find other guitar players or piano players to play what David, Carl, Bruce - and to some extent Dennis and Al - did. The argument is, in a way, an impossible one, because Brian DID HAVE those guys...he recorded what he recorded with them, and it makes speculating very difficult because of numerous situations, mostly family ones.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 12, 2022 13:51:41 GMT
I think reality is almost always just a little too nuanced, a little too "a little this, and also a little that," for pretty much any simple narrative.
Brian IS the Beach Boys? False. Brian is just another Beach Boy? False. He didn't succeed without them, but they didn't really ever succeed without him, either. Maybe he could have, and maybe they could have, under different circumstances, but that's unknowable.
As it is, he was the most important guy in the group, I'd say without any question. He was the most talented. If you want to use words like genius, he's the only one you could use it about. But I think it's fair to look at it as that article did: if he's a genius, his genius really only shone brightly while he was invested and embedded in the group.
I agree with you, but I wanted to address the bolded sentence. That statement is true, but it's also a little misleading. That period of time also coincides with when Brian was healthy. When Brian became ill, and the other guys had to, not only pick up the slack but carry the band, the records suffered, their popularity waned, and, commercially, they never recovered. They were never the same. They were never great, IMO.
Now, I realize you can't just look at record sales or chart positions. You have to give those 1969-73 and 1978-2012 records a chance. You can't be prejudiced. You have to have an open mind. Hey, there are a lot of dedicated and knowledgeable fans - Beach Boys' or otherwise - who think those records ARE great. For some, it's actually their favorite period. There are several fans who think Sunflower/Surf's Up/Holland is as good as anything the group ever did. Is it?
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Post by kds on Jan 12, 2022 13:58:30 GMT
The one thing I used to read in various articles and on various message boards was how the Beach Boys did, in fact, play their instruments on their early records. So, I began to focus on those songs/albums. Yes, I suppose they were competent, but I struggled to find specific parts that were outstanding or...great. Maybe the fact that the record, the final product, was great should be enough. Hey, they did their job and did it well. They did what Brian asked them to do. I mean, I guess they did but Brian didn't hesitate to replace them with studio musicians as soon as he got the chance.
As musicians, David, Carl, and Bruce could be considered very good musicians. Great? I don't know. I'm not a musician. But, I do sometimes wonder how easy it would've been to find other guitar players or piano players to play what David, Carl, Bruce - and to some extent Dennis and Al - did. The argument is, in a way, an impossible one, because Brian DID HAVE those guys...he recorded what he recorded with them, and it makes speculating very difficult because of numerous situations, mostly family ones.
I feel like the various touring versions of the Beach Boys over the decades showed that the musicianship could be fairly easily recreated. The Beach Boys were a unique band in that it was really all about the voices and the arrangements. And the various touring bands over the years also proved that the distinct vocal blend can be imitated pretty well, but never really recreated.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 12, 2022 14:03:20 GMT
As musicians, David, Carl, and Bruce could be considered very good musicians. Great? I don't know. I'm not a musician. But, I do sometimes wonder how easy it would've been to find other guitar players or piano players to play what David, Carl, Bruce - and to some extent Dennis and Al - did.
Instrumentally, very easy. Vocally, harder (but doable). I'm not saying those guys weren't good musicians: the three you mentioned were good instrumentalists as well as (the latter two) singers. But it was relatively standard rock/pop music. It's not rocket science.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 12, 2022 14:07:10 GMT
I think reality is almost always just a little too nuanced, a little too "a little this, and also a little that," for pretty much any simple narrative.
Brian IS the Beach Boys? False. Brian is just another Beach Boy? False. He didn't succeed without them, but they didn't really ever succeed without him, either. Maybe he could have, and maybe they could have, under different circumstances, but that's unknowable.
As it is, he was the most important guy in the group, I'd say without any question. He was the most talented. If you want to use words like genius, he's the only one you could use it about. But I think it's fair to look at it as that article did: if he's a genius, his genius really only shone brightly while he was invested and embedded in the group.
I agree with you, but I wanted to address the bolded sentence. That statement is true, but it's also a little misleading. That period of time also coincides with when Brian was healthy. When Brian became ill, and the other guys had to, not only pick up the slack but carry the band, the records suffered, their popularity waned, and, commercially, they never recovered. They were never the same. They were never great, IMO.
Now, I realize you can't just look at record sales or chart positions. You have to give those 1969-73 and 1978-2012 records a chance. You can't be prejudiced. You have to have an open mind. Hey, there are a lot of dedicated and knowledgeable fans - Beach Boys' or otherwise - who think those records ARE great. For some, it's actually their favorite period. There are several fans who think Sunflower/Surf's Up/Holland is as good as anything the group ever did. Is it?
It's just my opinion, but I'd say there are great moments on some of those records, particularly that 1969-73 period. But I'd also say (back to the sentence you bolded) that Brian's genius didn't shine particularly brightly during that period, and yes, it's at least partly (or largely?) because he was unwell.
The strong results could be explained, though, by the group having already established itself as massive hitmakers, giving them a catalogue to leverage in live shows. They were great singers and decent players. Between them, they could come up with enough songs to fill out album, and Brian was still contributing, whether with the occasional new material or leftovers that they could complete with or without him. So to me, that's not "his genius shining brightly," but reflections of it, or filtered light from it, combined with a good pop-rock band.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 12, 2022 14:16:27 GMT
One thing that does bear mention as we talk about who's good at what, and how good: there are many, many, many, many bands out there that have as much or more talent than various very successful bands. For whatever reason, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
My point is, a band comprising the Beach Boys minus Brian Wilson certainly had the talent to be hugely successful. Other bands with less talent certainly made it. That doesn't mean they would have, and I don't think their track record minus Brian shows they would have. But they could have.
In the end, though, it is a fuzzy combination of instrumental ability, vocal ability, material, production, some kind of identity, marketing ... if it were as easy as putting together Piece A, Piece B, and Piece C, the major labels would have 100% track records launching new acts.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 12, 2022 14:34:42 GMT
I agree with you, but I wanted to address the bolded sentence. That statement is true, but it's also a little misleading. That period of time also coincides with when Brian was healthy. When Brian became ill, and the other guys had to, not only pick up the slack but carry the band, the records suffered, their popularity waned, and, commercially, they never recovered. They were never the same. They were never great, IMO.
Now, I realize you can't just look at record sales or chart positions. You have to give those 1969-73 and 1978-2012 records a chance. You can't be prejudiced. You have to have an open mind. Hey, there are a lot of dedicated and knowledgeable fans - Beach Boys' or otherwise - who think those records ARE great. For some, it's actually their favorite period. There are several fans who think Sunflower/Surf's Up/Holland is as good as anything the group ever did. Is it?
It's just my opinion, but I'd say there are great moments on some of those records, particularly that 1969-73 period. But I'd also say (back to the sentence you bolded) that Brian's genius didn't shine particularly brightly during that period, and yes, it's at least partly (or largely?) because he was unwell.
This is getting off-topic a little bit, but I wanted to mention it. One view or thought has changed with me over the years, and that has to do with Brian's mental illness/addiction, or specifically when/how early it seriously affected his...talent. I used to think he was pretty much "the same" (mentally, not physically/vocally) up to about 1971 and the Surf's Up album. But, after reading some things - Bruce made some revealing comments in the Feel Flows notes - I'm starting to move the time line up...er...back to maybe even late 1967/early 1968 with Wild Honey and Friends. I used to "blame" that period on Brian changing directions, you know, WANTING to do something out of the box, wanting to do something different. Now, I'm starting to wonder how much he was consciously changing, or how much he just couldn't write and produce like he used to due to mental illness.
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Post by kds on Jan 12, 2022 14:39:16 GMT
It's just my opinion, but I'd say there are great moments on some of those records, particularly that 1969-73 period. But I'd also say (back to the sentence you bolded) that Brian's genius didn't shine particularly brightly during that period, and yes, it's at least partly (or largely?) because he was unwell.
This is getting off-topic a little bit, but I wanted to mention it. One view or thought has changed with me over the years, and that has to do with Brian's mental illness/addiction, or specifically when/how early it seriously affected his...talent. I used to think he was pretty much "the same" (mentally, not physically/vocally) up to about 1971 and the Surf's Up album. But, after reading some things - Bruce made some revealing comments in the Feel Flows notes - I'm starting to move the time line up...er...back to maybe even late 1967/early 1968 with Wild Honey and Friends. I used to "blame" that period on Brian changing directions, you know, WANTING to do something out of the box, wanting to do something different. Now, I'm starting to wonder how much he was consciously changing, or how much he just couldn't write and produce like he used to due to mental illness. I remember Bruce made a comment in the Endless Harmony documentary about how Brian was pretty heavily involved in Sunflower, but kind of stepped back after that album flopped. (I'm paraphrasing a bit since I haven't watched that doc in a few years).
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 12, 2022 14:41:48 GMT
I absolutely think health issues were relevant earlier than 1971. Hell, wasn't he first institutionalized in 1968 or '69? Not to mention, whatever you want to call what has been described as a nervous breakdown in the mid-60s, that's not a sign of health. Granted, he was able to carry on in a different capacity for a few years, full speed ahead. But it's not a good sign when somebody starts freaking out, crying, etc.
Mental health issues aren't a straight line, so I don't think we can point to the first issues and say "that's where he dropped off." As just mentioned, he had his "breakdown" and then went on to mastermind a few of the band's best albums. But the downs certainly began outweighing the ups beginning around 1967.
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EmCoco
Denny's Drums
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Post by EmCoco on Jan 12, 2022 17:57:14 GMT
I absolutely think health issues were relevant earlier than 1971. Hell, wasn't he first institutionalized in 1968 or '69? Not to mention, whatever you want to call what has been described as a nervous breakdown in the mid-60s, that's not a sign of health. Granted, he was able to carry on in a different capacity for a few years, full speed ahead. But it's not a good sign when somebody starts freaking out, crying, etc.
Mental health issues aren't a straight line, so I don't think we can point to the first issues and say "that's where he dropped off." As just mentioned, he had his "breakdown" and then went on to mastermind a few of the band's best albums. But the downs certainly began outweighing the ups beginning around 1967.
He was reportedly hospitalized in 1968, but I recall a thread in the SSMB that questioned the sourcing for that. It was referenced in Carlin’s book, but his sources were unnamed except for Steve Desper, who (according to the thread IIRC) had heard it secondhand. Not that one needs to be hospitalized to be seriously ill - I’m recounting all this mainly because I’m interested in this aspect of his life and welcome others’ input. Very much agree with the broader points here that his mental state — at the very least his anxiety about meeting his own crazy high standards — was probably beginning to hinder his output well before 71. PS: This is my first post here. Hi everyone!
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 12, 2022 18:25:17 GMT
I'll reference his (second, obviously) autobiography to see whether it's in there: honestly I don't remember one way or the other.
As for the Carlin book, did you check that or know it, or is that also something you recalled from the SSMB? Because if you didn't check it, I can do that, too. Otherwise I'll take your word for it.
Love your first post, btw, EmCoco: jumping right into the thick of it. We're glad to have you.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 12, 2022 18:59:10 GMT
Regarding Brian and hospitalizations, from I Am Brian Wilson:
"During bad years, I hid in my apartment or my house, wherever I happened to be living at the time. I was out of the light, and mostly the light was out of me. Sometimes I had to go to hospitals for a little while to relax and think--or to relax and not think. It was hard at those hospitals. They were unfamiliar places. The lighting was different than what I was used to, and the sounds were different and I had a hard time sleeping. I stayed up most nights. One of the times I went, in the late '60s, I was there in bed, trying to get to sleep, ad I heard a noise at the door. I turned and there was a guy there with a huge hard-on. I looked away from it, up to the guy's face, and it looked just like Tonto! I mean the actual Tonto from the TV Lone Ranger show, Jay Silverheels. I wasn't sure that it was him. He had everything but his horse, Scout. "Are you Tonto?" I said. The guy didn't say anything. He just stared at me. Then he turned and left the doorway." (p. 192)
And
"In 1978 I went bck to a mental hospital in San Diego. Some people said mental facility. It wasn't the first time. I had been to one back in the late '60s." (p. 199)
So I think we can consider it confirmed that he was indeed hospitalized in the late '60s for what we'd in hindsight call mental health problems, even if we don't quite have confirmation on the specific year.
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