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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2020 13:52:27 GMT
I'd kind of forgotten about The Black Crowes, a band I've always been completely indifferent about. So, I guess I'll meet you half way and say that the influence of Appetite was pretty short lived if anything.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 3, 2020 14:09:07 GMT
Depends how you look at it. I think it was significant in terms of making the dolled-up (whether glam-feminine or just vaguely gothic/monstrous) seem silly and passe; but it was insignificant in terms of their own bluesy hard rock as the long-term replacement.
Unfortunately I think the void they left behind their sweeping away of the scene was filled mostly by crap.
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2020 14:19:14 GMT
Depends how you look at it. I think it was significant in terms of making the dolled-up (whether glam-feminine or just vaguely gothic/monstrous) seem silly and passe; but it was insignificant in terms of their own bluesy hard rock as the long-term replacement.
Unfortunately I think the void they left behind their sweeping away of the scene was filled mostly by crap. Maybe so, but the dolled up bands still went pretty strong for a few years following Appetite's release. Appetite might've started the process of digging the grave, but it seemingly took grunge to close the casket and bury the body. I do wonder what might've happened to rock if GNR didn't disappear after 1994.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 3, 2020 14:30:40 GMT
The bands didn't disappear overnight, that's for sure: Van Halen, for example (as you well know), had a massive hit with For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. And the late 80s and early 90s--the post-Appetite years--had a lot of those same bands doing well. But it seemed to me at the time, anyway, that they were often toning down the costumery: Poison wasn't so feminine; Motley didn't continue the makeup and crazy costumes; etc.
Everyone went more jeans, black t-shirts, leather jackets as opposed to platform shoes or high heels, (feminine or scary) makeup, hair teased six inches high, animal-print spandex, purple scarves, spiked shoulder pads.
But then the grunge thing wasn't just about imagery, it was about everything. It felt to me--and still seems that way looking back--that something like this went on:
- Hard rock scene: combination of huge stadium tours and MTV make image and showmanship matter a lot; studio technology allows for even less talented acts to sound just fine... Things start getting out of hand.
- GnR: look, folks, let's not forget that rock and roll at its heart isn't about makeup and costumes and flashy videos. It's about dirty, drunken blues!
- Rock scene: takes criticism somewhat to heart, either because it resonates (and they're tired of spending 45 minutes teasing their hair) or they see the commercial value in copying GnR.
- Grunge scene: fuck you all. Your music is boring cock rock. Your solos are masturbatory. Your images are commercial whoring. Only we are authentic.
- Rock scene: we are afraid to contradict what's now popular and want to copy your "authenticity!"
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2020 14:38:50 GMT
I suppose that's true about the image being toned down a tad.
"- Rock scene: we are afraid to contradict what's now popular and want to copy your "authenticity!" "
In the words of Metallica, this is sad, but true. And it completely goes against everything rock and roll stands for. And that's why in 2020, we now have a "rock" scene dominated by Imagine Dragons and 21 Pilots.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 3, 2020 14:49:48 GMT
I hated the ethos of the 90s so, so much. And by the 00s it was just too late, things were all broken up into different scenes with very little common overlap.
But that 90s ethos, I can't tell you how many people I met in college who had the punk mentality that being good at your instrument was selling out, that having fun was inauthentic or superficial, that the power of metal was cheesy but the noise of grunge was fine, anything resembling the touch-points of the past decade was inevitably lame (hence layered flannel was somehow "not about image" but leather was and thus had disappeared from rockers) etc. Obviously I don't mean everyone ... but it was dominant, at least in my experience. To me, it was all so obviously still about image, but just a different one. And I thought there was room for everything. That mentality disagreed and the world bowed to them.
And that is part of why my personal journey went from the classic rock and metal that I loved as a teenager into the jazz, blues, and avant garde scenes: they escaped the grunge ethos. But it also meant I was fully outside of whatever mainstream there was; shortly thereafter there just wasn't really a mainstream at all.
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2020 14:57:25 GMT
I hated the ethos of the 90s so, so much. And by the 00s it was just too late, things were all broken up into different scenes with very little common overlap.
But that 90s ethos, I can't tell you how many people I met in college who had the punk mentality that being good at your instrument was selling out, that having fun was inauthentic or superficial, that the power of metal was cheesy but the noise of grunge was fine, anything resembling the touch-points of the past decade was inevitably lame (hence layered flannel was somehow "not about image" but leather was and thus had disappeared from rockers) etc. Obviously I don't mean everyone ... but it was dominant, at least in my experience. To me, it was all so obviously still about image, but just a different one. And I thought there was room for everything. That mentality disagreed and the world bowed to them.
And that is part of why my personal journey went from the classic rock and metal that I loved as a teenager into the jazz, blues, and avant garde scenes: they escaped the grunge ethos. But it also meant I was fully outside of whatever mainstream there was; shortly thereafter there just wasn't really a mainstream at all.
Sadly, there are still a lot of people I talk to, now in their late 30s or 40s, who still buy into that 90 ethos, about how that music was "real." Or, that bullshit about how musicianship and pitch perfect vocals are "unnecessary." And, as we discussed before, that was really the beginning of the homogenization of mainstream music, which was essentially a death kneel to all things that made rock music from the 60s, 70s, and even 80s great.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 3, 2020 15:03:52 GMT
However, all that aside ... Appetite For Destruction was a great, great debut album!
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2020 15:07:13 GMT
Speaking of the 1990s, I mentioned this on the album thread, but since it's also a debut, I'm mentioning The Darkness - Permission to Land (2003).
Permission to Land was essentially a "Fuck You!!" to that 90s mentality. It delivered fun, guitar solos, harmonies, rockers, ballads, singalong choruses, and even a naked girl on the cover for good measure. The Darkness basically tried to rebuild everything that grunge knocked down in that dire decade of the 90s. Sadly, the 90s did so much damage that people couldn't make head or tails of these Brits with their flashy costumes and throwback sound.
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2020 15:07:55 GMT
However, all that aside ... Appetite For Destruction was a great, great debut album! Absolutely, and that's one thing that's pretty indisputable.
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