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Post by Kapitan on Oct 5, 2021 13:09:37 GMT
I haven't thought this through and won't claim it's a strongly held opinion, but...
The single of the week, "Child of Winter," began some talk about that being the end of the Beach Boys as a really vital, creative group. This morning that got me thinking about the factions that proceeded through the '70s.
Dennis and Carl continued to sound current in their songs, fitting in more or less with the soft rock and yacht rock of the times.
Mike and Al largely went toward either covers of oldies or nostalgic new songs that may as well have been oldies.
Brian made a lot of music that in many ways was more like Mike's and Al's than like his brothers', but with much rougher edges, harsh synth sounds, not much polish on the product. And with bizarre lyrics. Very bizarre lyrics. What's more, they were often simpler than much of his music had been before. (Think of "Mona" or "Shortenin' Bread" as maybe the best examples of what I mean.)
So my possibly unpopular Beach Boys opinion is ... might Brian's music have been the worst path of the three outlined above? The other Wilsons' might not have been uniformly brilliant in the way Brian's earlier music was, but it was at least contemporary. And those voices--especially Carl's--could sell anything. Mike's and Al's could cash in on the oldies in a way that was quite popular in the latter '70s, and could sell with their aging fans.
Brian's? Maybe a core of genius here and there, but surrounded by a mantle and crust of mental illness, disinterest, uncommercial tomfoolery, absurd lyrics, sketchy performance, and hasty production. A truly Brian-led group at that time would have been interesting ... but I can't say it would have been successful, or for the best for anyone.
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Post by kds on Oct 5, 2021 13:22:53 GMT
I think you're onto something. I've been pretty vocal in my not being a fan of much of Brian's mid 1970s material from Funky Pretty & Mt. Vernon to most of the Love You album.
I said once before that, as crazy as this sounds, there was a period where Brian Wilson was the weakest link in The Beach Boys.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 5, 2021 13:27:03 GMT
The thing is, I personally would still take Brian's songs from that era over the others', for the most part. But I'm just a guy 40-45 years later without a dog in the fight. So I can enjoy brilliant little arrangements of overlapping synths and background vocals even if they are about the solar system or cigarette butts. I can recognize what's new, what's funny, what's creative, without suffering the consequences of what's out of tune, what's incomplete, what's embarrassing.
If I were in the band? Or management? That's where my point would come into play. If I were responsible for selling records...
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Post by kds on Oct 5, 2021 13:38:24 GMT
The thing is, I personally would still take Brian's songs from that era over the others', for the most part. But I'm just a guy 40-45 years later without a dog in the fight. So I can enjoy brilliant little arrangements of overlapping synths and background vocals even if they are about the solar system or cigarette butts. I can recognize what's new, what's funny, what's creative, without suffering the consequences of what's out of tune, what's incomplete, what's embarrassing.
If I were in the band? Or management? That's where my point would come into play. If I were responsible for selling records...
That's where I respectfully disagree as I don't think those arrangements are all that brilliant.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 5, 2021 13:42:27 GMT
I certainly don't mean to say they all are, not by a long shot. I just mean that without any vested interest in the band's business, I can pick and choose, I can fully enjoy, this or that brilliant arrangement, even if it's buried in a mountain of trash. (I'm not saying it's mostly trash, either.)
It's just stuff I'm free to pick through, whereas a band member, a manager, a label has to think about the entire product: the look, the tours, the albums, every song, etc.
And I do think there are moments of brilliance, particularly in the arrangements (but also sometimes melodies or even lyrics, in a twisted way). I don't mean to say they are the norm, or even the majority, though.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 5, 2021 15:42:30 GMT
I've always had strong - and probably unpopular - opinions about this subject/time frame. I see a similarity, almost a deja vu kind of thing, with what The Beach Boys went through in 1966, and then again in 1976.
In 1966, The Beach Boys were arguably at the top of the rock/pop music world. If they weren't the most popular band in the world (see the infamous poll that Mike Love likes to refer to repeatedly), they were probably second behind you know who. In 1966, with the success of Pet Sounds and two or three singles, The Beach Boys could've gone...anywhere. The band was touring, making some money, and the future appeared bright. In my opinion, at least some of the band were probably hoping for more of the same, you know, Today!/Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)/Pet Sounds music. I definitely think most Beach Boys' fans wanted that, as did probably the general listening public, too. So, the guys basically turned everything over to Brian, who would undoubtedly continue to work his magic, and continue to lead/keep the band on top. Mike, Dennis, Carl, and Al's music - if they even had any - would be put on temporary hold. We believe in Brian. The hit maker. The genius. The one Beach Boy who could lead the way and compete with the rest. And, they followed him...right off the proverbial cliff. Brian responded with Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends - and it was game over. Oh, I gotta give the guy credit. He was true to himself, true to his music, true to his art. Brian Wilson wrote and recorded music that HE WANTED. Maybe the other Beach Boys didn't exactly want it, maybe the record company didn't want it, and certainly many of the Beach Boys' fans didn't want it. But that's what Brian gave them, the group took a huge hit, and basically never fully recovered.
Now, flash forward to post-Holland, circa 1974-76. The Beach Boys are again either at or near the top of the rock/pop music world, albeit under different circumstances. But, not really. This time, it wasn't because of new hit albums/singles, but because of Endless Summer, Spirit Of America, and Good Vibrations: Best Of The Beach Boys. However, keep in mind, what was the link between the two eras? The band was immensely popular in 1966 and 1976 because of music written, produced, and recorded by Brian Wilson. So, again, deja vu-like, the Beach Boys went out on the road, performing to sold out audiences, making big bucks - and turned their musical future over to Brian Wilson. Despite those successful comps of the mid-70's, the group had built some recording momentum with the Surf's Up and Holland albums. While they weren't overwhelming commercial successes, those two albums did chart respectfully, and both were critically acclaimed. No matter, for reasons that only the group knew/knows, it was voted that Brian Wilson would be musically responsible for the bands immediate future. And, like 1966, Mike, Dennis, Carl, and Al followed Brian. And, again, right off the cliff.
Why did things go so wrong in 1976-1978? I think because Brian's new music didn't strike a chord...anywhere. With the exception of "It's OK", the music wasn't fun enough. It wasn't well-produced enough. It wasn't commercial enough. It wasn't Smile-like enough. It wasn't contemporary enough. It wasn't well-performed enough. Well, then, what was it? It was too quirky, too non-commercial, too raw, too rough, and, simply not good enough. Think about it. The band gave up on their 1971-73 sound (if there was one) for "TM Song", "That Same Song", "Love Is A Woman", "Mona", "Solar System", "Hey Little Tomboy", "Shortenin' Bread", "Some Of Your Love", and others. Oh, it wasn't all bad. Certainly there were highlights, but were the highlights songs that only Beach Boys' diehards could appreciate? I think so. Simply, when the Beach Boys turned the reins over to Brian Wilson in 1976, I don't think they had in mind albums like 15 Big Ones, Love You, and M.I.U Album. But that's what they got.
In 1967 - drugs, mental illness, poor management. In 1976 - more drugs, more mental illness, and more poor management. In 1967-68, Brian Wilson wrote, produced and recorded a lot of good music and some great music that the listening public didn't want. He repeated the same thing ten years later. That would be the last time he would be given that...opportunity.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 5, 2021 16:02:28 GMT
One thing that has become obvious to me was that by the mid-70s, there just wasn't a realistic path forward for a unified Beach Boys. They were neither fish nor fowl nor Brian. (Not sure which faction is fish and which is fowl.) I've gone back and forth on it over the years, but I think I really would have preferred that they break up once and for all, even before 15 Big Ones.
I think we'd have had better music as a result, or at least a few more internally coherent groups making music. Sure they could have--almost certainly would have--reunited at various times over the years, and that's fine. But I think a real breakup would have done them some good. A decade, maybe 15 years truly, fully, legally separated.
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Post by kds on Oct 5, 2021 17:05:23 GMT
I'm torn on that. Granted, there's a noticeable dip in overall quality of the albums post Holland. But, I think there's enough to like from 1976 onward to warrant the band staying together.
On the other hand, maybe you get less albums with better quality, and maybe the overall body of work looks better.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 5, 2021 17:13:34 GMT
One thing that has become obvious to me was that by the mid-70s, there just wasn't a realistic path forward for a unified Beach Boys. They were neither fish nor fowl nor Brian. (Not sure which faction is fish and which is fowl.) I've gone back and forth on it over the years, but I think I really would have preferred that they break up once and for all, even before 15 Big Ones.
I think we'd have had better music as a result, or at least a few more internally coherent groups making music. Sure they could have--almost certainly would have--reunited at various times over the years, and that's fine. But I think a real breakup would have done them some good. A decade, maybe 15 years truly, fully, legally separated.
I think there was a realistic path forward for The Beach Boys in the mid-70's, but they didn't know how to pull it off. Of course I'm using 20/20 hindsight, but, hey, it's a message board!
It's 1974-75. The Blondie & Ricky experiment is reaching its conclusion. Dennis has a lot of material stockpiled. The other band members had a song or two, too. Endless Summer/Spirit Of America is like a dog tugging at the group's pants leg. And for personal and professional reasons, it might be time to resurrect Brian Wilson. I really think they had the correct formula - not that they "invented" it; it came about by necessity - with the albums 20/20 through Holland. Brian COULDN'T CARRY an album anymore with his songs or his production skills. So, make it a group effort. Yes, if Brian had three or four strong songs, use them or feature them (like at the end of 20/20, Sunflower, and Surf's Up). Let Dennis display his songwriting talent, too, with a couple (maybe as many as four) of his songs. Mike, Carl, and Al were never prolific enough to have more than one or two songs to offer per album. So, make it a "group album" songwriting-wise, again like the previous four or five studio albums.
As far as production, yes, they could've re-inserted Brain in the producer's chair, but why not sit Carl right next to him for quality control. I'm not talking about something like they did with Love You, but close. I think with Love You, Carl's contributions were mainly finishing a couple songs and grafting his guitar in places. Love You is a Brian Wilson production. I'm talking almost a co-production situation. Let Brian take the lead with Carl gently (or not so gently) making suggestions. Who would've objected to that? Dennis, Mike, and Al didn't want to produce. Would've Brian objected? Would've he refused to...come back...if he didn't have complete control? I don't know. Was Carl healthy enough to continue producing, even in reduced role? I don't know about that either, but I think it could've worked up until 1978 (or two or three albums).
What I do know is that would've been a lot easier on Brian as he returned to the group, and at the same time, the other guys would've been contributing, too. I can't see the record company objecting to something like that. They still could've capitalized somewhat in Brian's return to the producer's chair, even if he wasn't calling all the shots. The guys must've had some inclination that Brian just wasn't healthy enough emotionally and physically to take on such a big load. Again, it's too bad they didn't have a manager that had a clue and could step in and stop the insanity. Literally.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 5, 2021 17:47:46 GMT
But a path that is theoretically possible, but that they either chose not to take or couldn't see, is part of my point. So to SJS's path, a group songwriting effort? OK, but we got those. They resulted in albums with no real coherence. Plus, we had groups of people who didn't want other people's approach. (Think of Dennis's reaction to 15 Big Ones.) Brian in the producer's chair (with Carl assisting)? OK, but he clearly didn't want to or couldn't, depending on the specific time in question.
I agree with KDS that we did get some good stuff from that period--hell, it includes Love You, which I love, as well as at least something good on every album--but my thought of disbanding doesn't necessarily eliminate anybody's music. If anything, it opens up the potential for people to do more, and more of what they actually wanted to do.
Admittedly, you'd (almost certainly) lose the group vocals. But as time went on, you also had fewer true full-group vocals, and more of these two guys on this, those three on that, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if we actually had more good music to look back on, although admittedly less Beach Boys-branded music.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 5, 2021 18:15:27 GMT
But a path that is theoretically possible, but that they either chose not to take or couldn't see, is part of my point. So to SJS's path, a group songwriting effort? OK, but we got those. They resulted in albums with no real coherence. Plus, we had groups of people who didn't want other people's approach. (Think of Dennis's reaction to 15 Big Ones.) Brian in the producer's chair (with Carl assisting)? OK, but he clearly didn't want to or couldn't, depending on the specific time in question.
I agree with KDS that we did get some good stuff from that period--hell, it includes Love You, which I love, as well as at least something good on every album--but my thought of disbanding doesn't necessarily eliminate anybody's music. If anything, it opens up the potential for people to do more, and more of what they actually wanted to do.
Admittedly, you'd (almost certainly) lose the group vocals. But as time went on, you also had fewer true full-group vocals, and more of these two guys on this, those three on that, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if we actually had more good music to look back on, although admittedly less Beach Boys-branded music.
With the possible exception of 20/20, I don't agree that some of the 1969-1973 "resulted in albums with no real coherence". I think the "group approach" worked, or as well as it could've worked without a dominant Brian Wilson. We've just heard Feel Flows! While some describe Carl & The Passions as "four singles comprising an album", I still think it works sonically. I also think the guys were happy with that aspect - being able to contribute songs - though they were obviously frustrated with the lack of commercial success. Do we know that Brian couldn't or wouldn't co-produce a new 1976 album with his brother, Carl? Weren't some (most?) of Brian's 1969-73 songs produced by Carl? In 1976, did Brian "clearly" insist on complete control, or did the group just offer it to him - and he said "OK".
I think, overall, Carl did a more than respectable job in producing the group (without credit) from 1969-73. Was Carl...ready...to relinquish the production duties to Brian in 1976? Were his feelings hurt, like he wasn't appreciated? I just have to think that if it were presented to Brian that maybe he and his brother, Carl, would/could produce an album together, he might've also said, "Yes". On Love You", Carl did get a credit as Mixdown Producer.
I think if Carl had more influence in 1976-78, it would've eliminated a lot of the problems and roadblocks that plagued especially 15 Big Ones and Love You. I'm mostly speaking about the poor vocals and even the questionable song selection. And, maybe Brian's songs would've come off better, in much the way they did on Sunflower and Carl & The Passions.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 5, 2021 18:27:08 GMT
With the possible exception of 20/20, I don't agree that some of the 1969-1973 "resulted in albums with no real coherence". I don't agree with that, either. I meant the latter '70s albums.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 5, 2021 18:31:24 GMT
With the possible exception of 20/20, I don't agree that some of the 1969-1973 "resulted in albums with no real coherence". I don't agree with that, either. I meant the latter '70s albums. Sorry, I missed your point on that. I was still on the 1974-1976 time frame, and alternate choices they could've made. But, yes, L.A. (Light Album) and Keepin' The Summer Alive were not coherent. Wrong producer chosen (or assigned by Brian).
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 5, 2021 18:50:32 GMT
Yeah, I meant the entirety of the latter '70s. So first we have a Mike-and-Brian / oldies album; then a Brian album; then a group album with a lot of Mike and Al; then a group album with a good amount of Carl and Dennis; then a kind of group album but mostly Mike/Brian again. And the producers are all over the map, with Brian, Brian, Al/Altbach, Bruce/band/Guercio, and Bruce.
My point was that what HAD worked (artistically ... and in a limited sense commercially, but not compared to earlier work) in the later 60s and early 70s wasn't working by the latter 70s. For whatever reason(s), they just were not capable of sharing the job. Whether artistic vision, business ideas, health, substance issues, general dislike for one another, or whatever else, a collection of different guys' songs on Sunflower or Surf's Up still sounds great; a collection of their songs on MIU or LA doesn't.
I just don't think they were a band by then--not in any sense beyond a formal one.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 5, 2021 19:16:09 GMT
Hopefully others will join in and opine. At the risk of repeating myself, I will say again that the choice(s) of producers was wrong, and a lack of strong manager/management was not there to step in and add some sanity to an insane situation. You needed a strong figure, someone who the group would listen to, to come in and say:
- This 15 Big Ones idea is not gonna work, from the album concept to giving Brian control as the sole producer.
- Again, giving Brian Wilson complete control as the producer is going to keep Love You from being a successful Beach Boys' album, in several ways (though I love it!). Please have someone...assist him...with quality control.
- If you're going to record a new album (M.I.U.), then get everybody's asses in there to make the record or don't make one at all. Do solo albums instead!
- No, you are not going to close the album with "Shortenin' Bread", you are not including an 11-minute long disco song, and you are not calling the album, L.A. (Light Album).
- If you're going to do a "return to summer" album, then put some damn summer songs on the album (can you say "Goin' To The Beach"?). And, if Dennis Wilson is still a Beach Boy, then please put his song(s) on the Beach Boys' album, too (instead of "When Girls Get Together").
But, nooooooooooooo. They didn't do that. Too many chiefs. Too many drugs. Too much mental illness (and not just with Brian). Too much divorce. Too much bankruptcy. You know, people have said that the guys never would've listened to a manager anyway. But, will all the problems facing, well, all of the members actually, you'd think they would've welcomed somebody strong stepping forward and calling the shots, assuming that person knew what they doing. And, that wasn't a given either.
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