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Post by Kapitan on Apr 5, 2019 19:51:40 GMT
Why do you hate Carl so much, you irrational Carl-hater?
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 5, 2019 21:17:48 GMT
Great posts, B.E. Two quick things. I have to do a better job at coming up with better or other adjectives than "great". I use it too much and it doesn't always fit what I'm trying to convey. It's laziness on my part, like using the word will cover all the bases, which it really doesn't accurately. Second, while I always appreciated Carl Wilson's vocals and always thought they were...great ...I was never and still am not a HUGE fan of some of the early, angelic, dare I say "almost wimpy" vocals. I much prefer the post-1977, more mature Carl vocals. I think all of that vocal work is truly special, and with the exception of Brian Wilson's prime years (1962-67), the best BB vocals ever.
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Post by B.E. on Apr 5, 2019 21:40:13 GMT
I was never and still am not a HUGE fan of some of the early, angelic, dare I say "almost wimpy" vocals. I much prefer the post-1977, more mature Carl vocals. I think all of that vocal work is truly special, and with the exception of Brian Wilson's prime years (1962-67), the best BB vocals ever. I don't really have a preference between his more "angelic" vocals or his grittier rock style. Nor a preference for one era over another. For me, it just depends on execution (and the song). What do you think of his Smiley Smile "Wonderful" vocal? That's one that I've grown to appreciate over time (it doesn't hurt that I love the song itself), but when I first heard it as a young fan I was not impressed at all. That reminds me, some of his vocals can be a bit too "breathy". I agree about Brian's prime vocals. My favorite, for sure.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 5, 2019 23:30:48 GMT
I was never and still am not a HUGE fan of some of the early, angelic, dare I say "almost wimpy" vocals. I much prefer the post-1977, more mature Carl vocals. I think all of that vocal work is truly special, and with the exception of Brian Wilson's prime years (1962-67), the best BB vocals ever. I don't really have a preference between his more "angelic" vocals or his grittier rock style. Nor a preference for one era over another. For me, it just depends on execution (and the song). What do you think of his Smiley Smile "Wonderful" vocal? That's one that I've grown to appreciate over time (it doesn't hurt that I love the song itself), but when I first heard it as a young fan I was not impressed at all. That reminds me, some of his vocals can be a bit too "breathy". I agree about Brian's prime vocals. My favorite, for sure. It's funny you would mention "Wonderful". That and "Wild Honey" might be my least favorite Carl Wilson lead vocals. But, I do realize from being on message boards that I'm in the minority there. It's not absolute, but there's almost a straight ahead/up trajectory with my appreciation of Carl's vocals starting with Smiley Smile (however, I do love "God Only Knows" and "Good Vibrations").
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Post by B.E. on Apr 5, 2019 23:42:59 GMT
I don't really have a preference between his more "angelic" vocals or his grittier rock style. Nor a preference for one era over another. For me, it just depends on execution (and the song). What do you think of his Smiley Smile "Wonderful" vocal? That's one that I've grown to appreciate over time (it doesn't hurt that I love the song itself), but when I first heard it as a young fan I was not impressed at all. That reminds me, some of his vocals can be a bit too "breathy". I agree about Brian's prime vocals. My favorite, for sure. It's funny you would mention "Wonderful". That and "Wild Honey" might be my least favorite Carl Wilson lead vocals. But, I do realize from being on message boards that I'm in the minority there. It's not absolute, but there's almost a straight ahead/up trajectory with my appreciation of Carl's vocals starting with Smiley Smile (however, I do love "God Only Knows" and "Good Vibrations"). While not exactly what you meant (I assume), I figured "Wonderful" could fit into that "almost wimpy" category. "Wild Honey", on the other hand, is one of my favorites. I understand why everyone might not love it, but the fact that it's at the edge of (or slightly beyond) his range is what I like about it. He's going all-out. I think the "Wonderful" vocal is one of those that non-fans will have very little patience for. Brian's "Solar System" is another one of those. Even some diehards aren't gonna dig it.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 6, 2019 0:58:52 GMT
Oh, I absolutely put Carl's "Wonderful" vocal into the "wimpy" category. I think I get what Brian (and Carl) were going for, and I certainly don't dismiss it (hey, it's a SMiLE era song). But, I think that Smiley Smile arrangement - which includes Carl's vocal - keeps the song from reaching it's potential. I'm not a big Smiley Smile fan. Just to reiterate, I think I know what Brian was attempting, I just don't...enjoy it...as much as I do other experiments of Brian's.
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Post by B.E. on Nov 26, 2019 2:21:58 GMT
In line with Jack's "they blew it, they blew it consistently..." quote, isn't it accurate to say that most fans agree that the Beach Boys left some of their best material unreleased? That they'd routinely choose the wrong songs to include on their albums? I feel like I've read that sentiment hundreds of times. Initially, I just accepted it as fact. After all, I was in the process of discovering a multitude of interesting recordings that had remained unreleased for many years (some are still unreleased!). That said, if you remove Smile from the conversation, is it still true? Personal preference aside, how many game changers were left on the cutting room floor? My answer at the moment is "few, if any". I think that answer probably qualifies as unpopular. Feel free to correct me!
Off the top of my head, I think "Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again)" may be the closest. Not because it would have changed the Beach Boys fortunes in any real way, but I think it could have elevated Dennis' reputation. Which could have aided his solo career, perhaps. The reputation of Surf's Up may have improved, marginally, as well (especially in retrospect). I'd love to be more optimistic, but "Slip On Through" and "Forever" were hardly noticed!
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Mike's the Greatest!!
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Post by Mike's the Greatest!! on Nov 26, 2019 20:22:33 GMT
I don't think Carl's voice got better over time....really, that would be contrary to nature even. Watching that Don Was movie about Brian where they segue from early Carl doing GOK to older Carl doing GOK was an almost shocking moment....the deterioration of his voice in such a short amount of time was stunning...can only assume, drugs, smoking, a life-time of over-touring had their inevitable effects. Also, while I appreciate Carl loved R&B and soul music, his attempts at singing it at least to me were almost painful to hear. Angelic and pure-voiced Carl beats the older Carl, if only because angelic is very much less common than soulful/r&b type vocals.
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Post by B.E. on Nov 26, 2019 23:50:54 GMT
Personal preference aside, how many game changers were left on the cutting room floor? Anyone? I'm really curious.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 26, 2019 23:51:44 GMT
Personal preference aside, how many game changers were left on the cutting room floor? Anyone? I'm really curious. A little later tonight. I'm doing a little research.
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Post by B.E. on Nov 27, 2019 0:05:37 GMT
I think "Can't Wait Too Long" is severely overrated. A satisfying, coherent edit is impossible. It's just a bunch of incomplete fragments. There are hardly any lyrics. The group vocals are noticeably pitchy. Fans seem to give it the Smile treatment. Not sure why - other than it's the last of its kind.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 27, 2019 0:36:59 GMT
Personal preference aside, how many game changers were left on the cutting room floor? Anyone? I'm really curious. Thanks for the reminder, I actually meant to respond but forgot. (I'm not especially smart.)
You said Smile aside, so that removes several songs that I think were really, really good. Not sure they'd qualify as game changers, but really good songs. However, it is also dependent on being left on the cutting room floor for a while, but not necessarily forever (or even for long). The Smile versions of Wonderful and Wind Chimes were in the can forever; Surf's Up was in the can for about four years; Cabinessence and Our Prayer were in the can for a couple years.
Soulful Old Man Sunshine is a really good one. And I think most of the good ones were from that same era, roughly 20/20 through Surf's Up. A lot came out a few years later, some came out further along. Not game changers, again, but just solid tunes that in theory could have helped the band keep chugging along.
Lastly, I think the Paley material should have been completed by the Beach Boys and released. I don't really think it's top-level stuff, but it's good stuff. Between it and the material that came out on Imagination (and thus could have in theory been kicked around a few years earlier), I think the band could have had an enjoyable, lengthy autumn to to their career. Maybe even (if the term isn't too problematic!) an Indian summer.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 27, 2019 2:41:16 GMT
In line with Jack's "they blew it, they blew it consistently..." quote, isn't it accurate to say that most fans agree that the Beach Boys left some of their best material unreleased? That they'd routinely choose the wrong songs to include on their albums? I feel like I've read that sentiment hundreds of times. Initially, I just accepted it as fact. After all, I was in the process of discovering a multitude of interesting recordings that had remained unreleased for many years (some are still unreleased!). That said, if you remove Smile from the conversation, is it still true? Personal preference aside, how many game changers were left on the cutting room floor? My answer at the moment is "few, if any". I think that answer probably qualifies as unpopular. Feel free to correct me! Off the top of my head, I think "Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again)" may be the closest. Not because it would have changed the Beach Boys fortunes in any real way, but I think it could have elevated Dennis' reputation. Which could have aided his solo career, perhaps. The reputation of Surf's Up may have improved, marginally, as well (especially in retrospect). I'd love to be more optimistic, but "Slip On Through" and "Forever" were hardly noticed! Not to get into semantics, but it depends not so much how you define "game changers", but how STRONGLY you feel about the individual songs that were left off the albums, and how much impact they would've made had they been included. Those opinions for each individual song could vary greatly from fan to fan, as well as the impact one might think their absence - or inclusion - would make on the particular album. Personally, I think sometimes one and definitely two additional songs could make a significant difference and be, as you say, a game changer. Here are a few examples:
Shut Down - Vol. 2 - Side 2 is pretty weak with an ending of "Shut Down, Part II", "Louie Louie", and "Denny's Drums". How about ending that album with "I Do"? Do you feel any better about the side/album now? Is "I Do" enough of a game changer? It's a great song.
The Beach Boys Today - While the song, "Guess I'm Dumb", wasn't completed by The Beach Boys, it could've been with a single vocal session. If you add this excellent song to the tracklist (and subtract "Bull Session With Big Daddy", and yes, I know you're not talking about deleting certain tracks), you have a better album. Another song, "All Dressed Up For School" would've made a nice addition, too. Game changers? Maybe. Would two good/very good songs improve the overall grade? I think so.
Summer Days (And Summer Nights) - Another song that could've been completed with a vocal session or two, "Sherry She Needs Me", would've been a nice addition. Now, on this album you are adding another variable - running time of the album. The Beach Boys' albums were notorious for being short in both minutes and number of songs. If you simply add "Sherry She Needs Me" to the fairly weak Side 2, specifically with the anti-climactic ending triad, you are "saving" that Side. Improving the album? Yes. Game changer? I don't know. Maybe.
Wild Honey - I am a huge fan of "Can't Wait Too Long". If you add a completed version/edit of that song, and also add a completed "Water Chant/Cool Cool Water" to that album, the notoriously short Wild Honey album is definitely a much better album in quantity AND quality.
Sunflower - Due to the strength of this album, it's harder for songs to be game changers, but if you add "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" and maybe Dennis's "Lady", this album is improved by a full grade IMO. How about a half?
Surf's Up - the easiest Beach Boys' album for game changers. Add Dennis's "(Wouldn't It Be) To Live Again", "4th Of July", and "Lady" if it doesn't appear on Sunflower, and you have an album that shoots up the ranks of "best Beach Boys' album" polls.
Holland - This album could've used a little more...life. "Hard Times" and "We Got Love" would've helped substantially. Is each of those songs a game changer? No, but if you combine them...
15 Big Ones - Where do I start? How about with "Good Timin'" (unreleased at the time). Then there's "Sea Cruise" and "Come Go With Me". I'd take those three in a heartbeat. Of course you have to factor in deleted songs, too. All of a sudden 15 Big Ones ain't so bad.
M.I.U. - This is just my opinion; I don't expect much support. But, if you add "Our Team" (admittedly not a great song) and "Winter Symphony" (yes, a great song) to this album, it is a much better album. But you need both additions for it to be a game changer. Maybe even tailor a version of "Almost Summer" to the Beach Boys. M.I.U. is weak enough that it takes two songs to substantially improve it.
B.E., your point is well taken. It is difficult to say that just one unreleased song added to an album can be a game changer. And it's difficult to designate which songs are indeed game changers. Like I said above, it's a matter of opinion. And like I said above, it might take two per album, which was definitely feasible with several albums. But, there is another way to view potential game changing songs, and that would be the cumulative effect of adding these unreleased songs to the Brian Wilson/Beach Boys catalogue. You could make a helluva comp comprised of unreleased (at the time) songs. I know because I did it! Seriously, we're not talking about a handful of songs, but several. Several excellent released Beach Boys' songs on albums. I think it would've accounted for...something.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 27, 2019 3:08:07 GMT
I love SJS's approach, regardless of any individual song in question. It's not about whether there was a better best song for any given album. That, we can generally agree, wasn't something that happened much, if ever. It's more about replacing the worst two or three songs on albums with better songs. Now instead of nonsense fuller, there are a few stronger songs, and the whole feeling about the album in question is raised.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 27, 2019 4:18:53 GMT
I don't think Carl's voice got better over time....really, that would be contrary to nature even. Watching that Don Was movie about Brian where they segue from early Carl doing GOK to older Carl doing GOK was an almost shocking moment....the deterioration of his voice in such a short amount of time was stunning...can only assume, drugs, smoking, a life-time of over-touring had their inevitable effects. Also, while I appreciate Carl loved R&B and soul music, his attempts at singing it at least to me were almost painful to hear. Angelic and pure-voiced Carl beats the older Carl, if only because angelic is very much less common than soulful/r&b type vocals. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Carl definitely peaked vocally later in his career. He "saved" some of The Beach Boys' later albums including L.A. (Light Album), Keepin' The Summer Alive, The Beach Boys 1985, and to a lesser extent Summer In Paradise. His last Beach Boys' vocal (other than on Stars And Stripes) was on the Summer In Paradise version of "Forever". Simply put, his short vocal on that track is one of the greatest of his career.
You mentioned getting better vocally is "contrary to nature". There are exceptions of course. Frank Sinatra recorded his first song in 1939, yet many experts/fans cite his work with Capitol Records in the mid/late 1950's as his best vocal work. Tony Bennett recorded his first song in 1952, some of his best work was done in the 1970's and beyond. How would you compare Mick Jagger's vocal work from 1964 to later work done in 1978 (Some Girls) and even 1981 (Tattoo You)? Michael Jackson? Willie Nelson? I'm not a big fan but maybe Eric Clapton? A very interesting topic.
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