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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 3, 2019 20:23:12 GMT
I know what you mean. Obviously I'm not ruffling many feathers with my opinions. Not that I'm trying mind you...
So far, most of my Beach Boys Opinions have been depressingly pedestrian, so I can supply some feigned outrage/dismay if you like. Goin' On is by far the best song on KTSA! Thank you for disagreeing with me. And, please, you can feign outrage and dismay any time!
Having bought Keepin' The Summer Alive the day it was released, I liked "Goin' On" a lot for many years. It has a nice Mike Love/group lead vocal, great harmonies, and you could actually hear Brian Wilson it. And I didn't take hearing Brian for granted; he's barely on the album. "Goin' On" was performed live on National TV (on a show called Fridays), and it made the cut on the Ten Years Of Harmony album, so I figured somebody likes it. However, over time I found the song slightly boring. It's not much of a melody, and while the harmonies are full and expressive, they're not very complex; they almost sound like practicing scales. Today, while I still like "Goin' On", it has slipped behind some other KTSA songs like "Sunshine", "Livin' With A Heartache", "Santa Ana Winds", and maybe even "Oh Darlin'".
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Post by B.E. on Apr 3, 2019 22:49:07 GMT
I think "Goin' On" is held in such high regard because it's one of the few later period BBs songs that so nearly captures the classic sound of the group. As a result, it belongs on compilations. I agree with geminitactics that it's the best song on KTSA, but not by a large margin. For me, there's not much separating it from "Oh Darlin'" or "Keepin' The Summer Alive" or "Livin' With A Heartache".
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Post by B.E. on Apr 3, 2019 23:06:36 GMT
Some unpopular opinions of my own?
1. I legitimately like "Remember (Walking In The Sand)". It's one of only two such songs on Summer In Paradise. For me, it's right up there with "Lahaina Aloha" in contention for best song on the album. As for the rest of the album...my opinions are very popular and therefore I wholeheartedly disagree with kds and Sheriff John Stone's comments to the contrary in this thread. With that said, I thank you for posting such thoroughly unpopular opinions! That's the name of the thread, after all. Perhaps my next one will ruffle some feathers.
2. Carl Wilson is an overrated singer.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 4, 2019 3:28:45 GMT
Some unpopular opinions of my own? 2. Carl Wilson is an overrated singer. It's hard to let this one slide. If you would've named any other Beach Boy I wouldn't disagree with you. But Carl? I think he was the only Beach Boy who was ALWAYS great. The other ones either had down, shaky periods or ruined their voices. Al was consistent, too, but he wasn't in the same league as Carl Wilson. Can you elaborate on your point/opinion?
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Post by kds on Apr 4, 2019 12:26:28 GMT
Some unpopular opinions of my own? 1. I legitimately like "Remember (Walking In The Sand)". It's one of only two such songs on Summer In Paradise. For me, it's right up there with "Lahaina Aloha" in contention for best song on the album. As for the rest of the album...my opinions are very popular and therefore I wholeheartedly disagree with kds and Sheriff John Stone's comments to the contrary in this thread. With that said, I thank you for posting such thoroughly unpopular opinions! That's the name of the thread, after all. Perhaps my next one will ruffle some feathers. 2. Carl Wilson is an overrated singer. Thank you, I have no problem sharing my extremely unpopular opinions on SIP. In fact, I'd probably go so far to say that, on some levels, I enjoy it more than the Love You album. It's nice to have a couple forums where I can post stuff like this without being told how wrong I am, or being accused of being on Mike's payroll. Also, I've posted this on other BB forums before, and it sounds nuts, but in 1973, the weakest link in the Beach Boys was....Brian Wilson.
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Post by kds on Apr 4, 2019 12:28:05 GMT
Some unpopular opinions of my own? 2. Carl Wilson is an overrated singer. It's hard to let this one slide. If you would've named any other Beach Boy I wouldn't disagree with you. But Carl? I think he was the only Beach Boy who was ALWAYS great. The other ones either had down, shaky periods or ruined their voices. Al was consistent, too, but he wasn't in the same league as Carl Wilson. Can you elaborate on your point/opinion? I disagree on Carl "always" being great. He turned in some very mediocre vocals on 15 Big Ones and Love You. Luckily, despite his habit for smoking and other vices, he didn't destroy his voice like his brothers did.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 4, 2019 12:37:15 GMT
Carl Wilson was undoubtedly a GREAT singer. But just like great shooters miss some jumpshots, great quarterbacks over- and underthrow some passes, and great writers churn out the occasional trash, I agree that not all of his vocals were great.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 4, 2019 13:01:07 GMT
Let me do some 'splaining...When I say that Carl Wilson was always great, I DO MEAN that he was always great, but maybe not 100% of the time. Seriously, not every single lead vocal was great, but I don't think he went years or albums or even album sides without being great. In his 37 years with the group, you have to struggle to find less than great leads. Maybe, MAYBE one or two.
I have read some negative comments over the years about Carl's vocals on 15 Big Ones and Love You - and I disagree. I'm not rationalizing. I think Carl was going for a particular effect or style on 15 Big Ones and Love You. I don't think it was the drugs or alcohol. I think it was a combination of his voice changing (as he approached age 30) and Carl trying to be a little rougher or "non-angelic". I have no problems with "Palisades Park" or "Just Once In My Life". And I think it was "Talk To Me" - the song or arrangement - which made it a difficult lead vocal. I have no problems on Love You. Again, that album was all about being "rough" and unpolished. And I'll defend Carl's vocal on "The Night Was So Young" forever. I believe he was going for that weary, deeper-sounding, getting out of bed at 3 o'clock and pouring a glass of milk approach. It's perfect for that song.
As far as Carl's voice transitioning during 1976-77, he pulled it off. When he came out the other side on L.A. (Light Album) he was stupendous.
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Post by nach0king on Apr 4, 2019 22:55:49 GMT
You'd struggle to find live singers who kept it up as well as Carl did for so long. Of all the criticisms to be made of him, saying he was an overrated singer is one of the more... peculiar that I've heard
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Post by sebevedomy on Apr 5, 2019 7:30:36 GMT
I think Bruce Johnston's Pipeline cover is awesome.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 5, 2019 12:36:18 GMT
You'd struggle to find live singers who kept it up as well as Carl did for so long. Of all the criticisms to be made of him, saying he was an overrated singer is one of the more... peculiar that I've heard One can be both great and overrated.
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Post by kds on Apr 5, 2019 13:06:42 GMT
You'd struggle to find live singers who kept it up as well as Carl did for so long. Of all the criticisms to be made of him, saying he was an overrated singer is one of the more... peculiar that I've heard Hence the unpopular opinion.
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Post by dumbangel66 on Apr 5, 2019 16:44:40 GMT
You'd struggle to find live singers who kept it up as well as Carl did for so long. Of all the criticisms to be made of him, saying he was an overrated singer is one of the more... peculiar that I've heard One can be both great and overrated. exactly example beatles are great but overrated
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 5, 2019 17:27:52 GMT
Then there is always my old pet peeve of overrating the rating of things. Something is neither made better nor worse by being under- or overrated. The rating is irrelevant to the quality entirely; it speaks only to the rater(s). And who cares about them?
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Post by B.E. on Apr 5, 2019 19:45:57 GMT
Some unpopular opinions of my own? 2. Carl Wilson is an overrated singer. It's hard to let this one slide. If you would've named any other Beach Boy I wouldn't disagree with you. But Carl? I think he was the only Beach Boy who was ALWAYS great. The other ones either had down, shaky periods or ruined their voices. Al was consistent, too, but he wasn't in the same league as Carl Wilson. Can you elaborate on your point/opinion? Yes, I can. Overall, I think Carl was a GREAT singer. I don't have a single criticism of him as a live performer or harmony singer. With that said, I am pushing back against the notion that he was perfect. Flawless. That he was "always" great. Even, that he had the "voice of an angel". Objectively, I think there's a fairly large segment of diehard fans that are entirely uncritical. Subjectively, I'm just not as in love with Carl's natural voice as many other fans are. My biggest critique of his singing ability is his poor enunciating skills (I could provide examples but I don't really think that's necessary). It gets so bad that there are a few lines (and many more single words) of songs (spanning his entire career) that I still have no idea what he is singing. That may not be an issue for anyone else, but I don't love it. That's my main issue, but I have a few other minor quibbles. At times, I think Carl lacked variation in his vocal delivery. For example, (and I know this may seem unfair, but) listen to his "4th of July" vocal. He sings nearly every line with the same intensity and style. It's also an example of a very "sleepy" sounding Carl, which wasn't unique to that performance. I know that I'm nitpicking, but how often do we hear fans say something like "Oh, Carl should have sung that one!", as if he didn't already sing a heck of a lot of Beach Boys songs (especially from Wild Honey onwards)? My position is Carl is great. Amazing. But sometimes he could have done better. Here are two fringe examples that I think illustrate this nuanced view that I'm trying to communicate: 1) I'm a big fan of "Oh Darlin'". I like it a lot, but Carl sings it with very little variation. He sings it calmly throughout (which sounds very good, don't get me wrong). The "oh-oh"s transitioning into the choruses are sung very tentatively (too much so, IMO). There's finally some variation at 2:57 with "Oh-o-darlin'" but the effect isn't nearly as great as what's implied by Brian in his take (I say "implied" because Brian didn't nail it, exactly, but he was close. It's far more exciting). 2) Similarly, listening to Brian's "Soulful Old Man Sunshine (Writing Session Excerpt)" hints at a truly great vocal performance. That "I" he hits in "no wonder I can sing a song..." is entirely worthy of the reaction it got - a thousand times over. Carl's take still had some nice moments, but he didn't hit that "I" like that. That's for sure. In this vein, I suppose I could mention Carl vs Dennis' "Only With You". While different approaches were clearly taken, it's hard to argue against Dennis' "Before love had always had its ups and downs". It's probably the most emotionally crucial part of the whole song and Dennis' lead (and frantically-earnest sounding harmony) doesn't disappoint, whereas, Carl's poor enunciation has you wondering if he said " less ups and downs". To his credit, he nailed the following line IMO. Let me do some 'splaining...When I say that Carl Wilson was always great, I DO MEAN that he was always great, but maybe not 100% of the time. Seriously, not every single lead vocal was great, but I don't think he went years or albums or even album sides without being great. In his 37 years with the group, you have to struggle to find less than great leads. Maybe, MAYBE one or two. I have read some negative comments over the years about Carl's vocals on 15 Big Ones and Love You - and I disagree. I'm not rationalizing. I think Carl was going for a particular effect or style on 15 Big Ones and Love You. I don't think it was the drugs or alcohol. I think it was a combination of his voice changing (as he approached age 30) and Carl trying to be a little rougher or "non-angelic". I have no problems with "Palisades Park" or "Just Once In My Life". And I think it was "Talk To Me" - the song or arrangement - which made it a difficult lead vocal. I have no problems on Love You. Again, that album was all about being "rough" and unpolished. And I'll defend Carl's vocal on "The Night Was So Young" forever. I believe he was going for that weary, deeper-sounding, getting out of bed at 3 o'clock and pouring a glass of milk approach. It's perfect for that song. As far as Carl's voice transitioning during 1976-77, he pulled it off. When he came out the other side on L.A. (Light Album) he was stupendous.
I'm going to cherry-pick one more time. Yesterday I discovered The Belmonts 1972 album Cigars, Acappella, Candy. Wow! Now that's a great version of "Da Doo Ron Ron". Incredible lead vocal. Now, obviously, I'm not trying to contradict you. You acknowledge that not every lead vocal, every syllable was great. That's all I was referring to. That's the sense in which I think he's an overrated singer. Carl wasn't always best. Not within the group, not outside of it. I'm glad I didn't elaborate initially, as you might not have expressed this opinion regarding Carl's '76-77 vocals. For me, his vocal performance on Youngblood is very strong evidence to the contrary. Clearly, Carl didn't sound how he sounded in '76-77 because of age. Also, for the record, I don't have a problem with his vocals on 15 Big Ones. I like them all, but at the same time I don't think they're "great". Bill Medley's vocal performance of "Just Once In My Life" is great. Carl's was just cool ( nothing wrong with that ). Although, come to think of it, I could hear Mike singing those lower register lines in the verse (e.g. "there's a lot of things I want"). Conversely, listen to Carl sing the opening of "One More Night Alone". Truly great. Awe-inspiring. You can hear how focused he was in his delivery. Utter perfection. You can say that during the '76-77 period that he was going for a looser, rougher, unpolished delivery (which is true, I suppose), but can you honestly imagine Carl in '76-77 replicating those Youngblood performances exactly? I honestly don't think he was capable of doing it at that time. I just don't hear it. Drugs had to have affected him in that regard. Anything that affects your focus or your physical ability, in the slightest, will affect your singing. For the most part, I really dig Carl's vocals on Love You as well. As you say, it fits the record. One exception being Carl's ridiculously bad lead vocal at 0:25 of "Johnny Carson". I can see many fans thinking that's fun and getting a laugh out of it, but to me it's too far. Another exception being Carl's subpar performance on one of my favorite BBs songs, "I'll Bet He's Nice." Again, you listen to the demo and you (and the rest of the guys) can just feel the excitement of that bridge. Unfortunately, "sleepy" Carl is out in full force. It's not so bad that it hinders the song, but he definitely could have done better. Brian and Dennis, surprisingly, turn in flawless performances (the state of their voices notwithstanding). I hope it's obvious to everyone that I'm still a Carl fan.
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