|
Post by B.E. on Mar 8, 2020 14:23:23 GMT
Great discussion guys. I wish I had the patience right now to reread the last page or two and appropriately address the dozen or so points that interested me, but for now let me just say this... SJS, I think you're 100% right to pinpoint September 1977 as the beginning of the end (in regard to this discussion). I think this is when various members reached a tipping point with each other and from that point on I also question 'how' and 'how much' they tried to work things out. I also suspect you are right about how something like the M.I.U. project (and various other projects in the ensuing decades) came about. Anyway, the main thing I wanted to bring to the discussion is this answer from Mike's Goldmine interview (it was posted on SSMB yesterday, and I was shocked how pertinent it was to this discussion) - Read the full answer to the first question here. Mike is complaining that his vision for a "repackaged" Still Cruisin' was compromised by the inclusion of new material from Brian and Al. He equates their participation with "politics". Here's his summation: So what happened in this instance was I was not happy that the album was half repackage and half politics. What happens when you do things politically just to accommodate the fact that if you're in a group and you divide it by five members, and you got two songs each, it may be a nice thing to do but everybody has their point of view that isn't taken into consideration objectively.
I think this really gets to the heart of the issue. Starting in 1977, and growing yearly, I think Mike looked around and thought, "it's my turn". Dennis was kicked out of the group numerous times, Carl left and came back, Brian was kicked out and sued, Al was kicked out and sued, David was brought back and kicked out, only Mike & Bruce have been left standing. By 1999, it wasn't just an issue of what Brian wanted and what Melinda thought was best, it was about MIKE. I don't believe Mike wanted anything to do with Brian (or Al) by that point. The same month Carl died Mike released the NASCAR album and immediately thereafter he was wrangling for a touring license. Mike didn't want to tour with Brian and Mike didn't want to be produced/managed by Brian. And, the bottom line was that Brian wasn't capable of walking through the door and taking sole control of the group like he had in the glory days (and to Mike's credit, I think he would have happily gone along with that if it were).
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 8, 2020 16:07:01 GMT
By 1999, it wasn't just an issue of what Brian wanted and what Melinda thought was best, it was about MIKE. I don't believe Mike wanted anything to do with Brian (or Al) by that point. I think Mike was willing to work with Brian, both in the studio and on the road, but on his (Mike's) terms. And that's what I think was the major change with Mike's approach to Brian. Mike was always there, in good times and bad. He never quit, he never took a break, he never went solo, he never stopped pushing onward. Brian, on the other hand, did. And I'm not judging Brian or "blaming" Brian; he had his issues and serious ones at that. I'm not making light of them. But I think it got to the point, probably around 1998-99 but maybe closer to C50, when Mike did put his foot down and say, hey, I'll always want to work with cousin Brian, and he's always be welcome to...join in...but not the way it used to be, just coming in and out sporadically and in various conditions (physically and emotionally). I think Mike thought that he (Mike) earned that right to set certain parameters - whether it's concerning Brian Wilson or any other Beach Boy. In some ways I agree with Mike. He put up with a lot of sh it through the years and that has to stand for something. Now, that being said, I don't think The Beach Boys should've ever been a dictatorship, and if Mike did have a strong position or stance on an issue, even personnel-related, it should've been run through BRI and been brought to a vote. Oh, I can only imagine how those BRI meetings went down through the years.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Mar 8, 2020 16:31:48 GMT
By 1999, it wasn't just an issue of what Brian wanted and what Melinda thought was best, it was about MIKE. I don't believe Mike wanted anything to do with Brian (or Al) by that point. I think Mike was willing to work with Brian, both in the studio and on the road, but on his (Mike's) terms. And that's what I think was the major change with Mike's approach to Brian. Mike was always there, in good times and bad. He never quit, he never took a break, he never went solo, he never stopped pushing onward. Brian, on the other hand, did. And I'm not judging Brian or "blaming" Brian; he had his issues and serious ones at that. I'm not making light of them. But I think it got to the point, probably around 1998-99 but maybe closer to C50, when Mike did put his foot down and say, hey, I'll always want to work with cousin Brian, and he's always be welcome to...join in...but not the way it used to be, just coming in and out sporadically and in various conditions (physically and emotionally). I think Mike thought that he (Mike) earned that right to set certain parameters - whether it's concerning Brian Wilson or any other Beach Boy. In some ways I agree with Mike. He put up with a lot of sh it through the years and that has to stand for something. Now, that being said, I don't think The Beach Boys should've ever been a dictatorship, and if Mike did have a strong position or stance on an issue, even personnel-related, it should've been run through BRI and been brought to a vote. Oh, I can only imagine how those BRI meetings went down through the years. I don't really disagree. It's just that I suspect those parameters were unrealistic and more or less (purposefully) precluded Brian's involvement. I get it. He was fed up and threw in the towel. I think Mike's attitude/approach goes back further than 1998-1999, it's just due to the circumstances and events of those years that it becomes clearly evident.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Mar 8, 2020 16:39:23 GMT
Didn't Mike say in the wake of C50 that Brian could have gotten a license for himself if he wanted? Which makes me think - gee, Mike, maybe Brian doesn't think numerous "Beach Boys" should exist at once? Like, you could have tried to include Brian (and Al) from the beginning or you could continue with C50 or some other version of it.
Edit: As has been said, it certainly doesn't seem like any of them cared enough to work things out. Or, they simply couldn't (despite their best intentions).
|
|
|
Post by kds on Mar 8, 2020 17:38:08 GMT
I really don't think either side were very interested in keeping it going. I'm 100% convinced if Brian really wanted to be a Beach Boy (or Melinda wanted him to be), he would be.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 8, 2020 19:04:14 GMT
I think Mike would've welcomed Brian's input on Summer In Paradise. That album concept was right up Brian's alley, even in his 50 year-old state. And, I think the Stars & Stripes project, while maybe not being as successful as hoped, was also a positive experience for Mike and Brian. It was kind of a low-pressure, let's get together and hang out kind of thing. If the Nashville Sounds video/documentary (and a fine one at that) was any indication, it appeared to at least accomplish some type of a reunion.
I think things started to go south when Brian hooked up with Joe Thomas, moved to Illinois, and released a Beach Boys' album in almost every way but the artist's name - with Imagination. OK, that's another example. Joe Thomas was a mutual connection within the Beach Boys. Brian was releasing what would become his typical Beach Boys-like solo album. Heck, he even covered two and a half Beach Boys' songs on it. Why couldn't something be worked out to make that a Beach Boys' project? Because Melinda didn't want it to be? Because Mike would've insisted in co-writing the songs? Because Brian wanted no part of The Beach Boys at that particular time? Who knows, but if I was the manager of the group (did they even have one at that time?), I would've worked damn hard to make Imagination a Beach Boys' album.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Mar 8, 2020 19:15:09 GMT
I really don't think either side were very interested in keeping it going. I'm 100% convinced if Brian really wanted to be a Beach Boy (or Melinda wanted him to be), he would be. The only roadblock (assuming Mike isn't 100% onboard) would be Carl's estate. Brian would need their vote. And, if Mike's not onboard, as the end of C50 proves, I just don't think Brian wants to fight over it. I don't think Brian can conceive of a Beach Boys without Mike. I think Mike would've welcomed Brian's input on Summer In Paradise.
Based on how viciously Mike trashed BW88 and bemoaned "In My Car" - I doubt it. This was post-Kokomo Mike. I can't imagine him entertaining a Sweet Insanity-style SiP. It's unfortunate. I wish it could have worked out better.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Mar 8, 2020 22:56:56 GMT
B.E., I'm glad you posted a link to that Goldmine interview. I think it's actually quite shocking in spots, and really in spots a good reminder of why there was a justified anti-Mike sentiment. (As we've all discussed, I don't mean Mike=Satan, but more like for anyone trying to counter the Brianistas, it's not reasonable to go too far the other direction.)
In the end I truly believe it's the personal stuff that torpedoed it all, and that's why I think we can work ourselves up too much with other coulda-beens: if the final decider is "because I don't want to," there's not much response to that.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Mar 9, 2020 12:11:52 GMT
I really don't think either side were very interested in keeping it going. I'm 100% convinced if Brian really wanted to be a Beach Boy (or Melinda wanted him to be), he would be. The only roadblock (assuming Mike isn't 100% onboard) would be Carl's estate. Brian would need their vote. And, if Mike's not onboard, as the end of C50 proves, I just don't think Brian wants to fight over it. I don't think Brian can conceive of a Beach Boys without Mike. I think Mike would've welcomed Brian's input on Summer In Paradise.
Based on how viciously Mike trashed BW88 and bemoaned "In My Car" - I doubt it. This was post-Kokomo Mike. I can't imagine him entertaining a Sweet Insanity-style SiP. It's unfortunate. I wish it could have worked out better. I wasn't really talking about Brian Wilson touring as "The Beach Boys" when I said that if Brian (or Brian's team) wanted Brian to be a Beach Boy, he'd be a Beach Boy. I was talking about keeping the reunion going, or some version of the reunion.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 9, 2020 12:50:12 GMT
And, that point, or argument, used to drive me crazy, too. I do agree that what Brian Wilson wanted, he usually got, and if he really - REALLY - wanted to continue being a Beach Boy, there were ways to accomplish it.
There were/are two options that were/are usually mentioned and then quickly shot down or dismissed. One option would've been to call a corporate vote to change the terms of the licensing. The other way was, if the vote couldn't be accomplished, to take it to court. But that never happened. The two reasons for neither of those options being pursued were a) Brian didn't have enough votes, and b) the cost and time it would've taken for a lawsuit would've been prohibitive.
Assuming Brian and Al would've voted to continue the reunion both in touring and recording, all they would've needed was for Carl's estate to either vote with them or abstain. Maybe Carl's estate would've sided with Brian and Al. If Mike would've "lost" the vote, yes, it probably would've gone to court. However, despite what many fans have said - and I disagree with them vehemently - I don't think it would've been tied up in court for a long time. BRI could've requested, and I think would've been granted, an expedited trial and verdict, based on the unique and time-important aspect of the case (the age of the participants and acting quickly based on the nature of the music business). And, if continuing to be a Beach Boy was so important to Brian (and Al), why would the money be of utmost importance to a couple of multi-millionaires like Brian and Al?
One more thing to keep in mind. Even if the case would've ended up in court for an extended period of time (say two or three years), C50 was now eight years ago. Point? If Brian and Al would've won the case, The Beach Boys (if Mike complied) would've now been back together for what, five or six years?
|
|
|
Post by kds on Mar 9, 2020 13:00:04 GMT
I honestly don't think Mike would've voted against it.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Mar 9, 2020 14:16:57 GMT
The only roadblock (assuming Mike isn't 100% onboard) would be Carl's estate. Brian would need their vote. And, if Mike's not onboard, as the end of C50 proves, I just don't think Brian wants to fight over it. I don't think Brian can conceive of a Beach Boys without Mike. I wasn't really talking about Brian Wilson touring as "The Beach Boys" when I said that if Brian (or Brian's team) wanted Brian to be a Beach Boy, he'd be a Beach Boy. I was talking about keeping the reunion going, or some version of the reunion. So was I. We were talking about the same thing. In my previous post, though, when I said "Didn't Mike say in the wake of C50 that Brian could have gotten a license for himself if he wanted?", I wasn't clear that (IIRC) Mike was referring back to '98-99. Regardless, in that post, I was applying that mindsight to both '98-99 and post-C50. It doesn't seem like Mike had/has much interest in including Brian and Al in his version of the Beach Boys, does it?
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Mar 9, 2020 15:02:17 GMT
And, that point, or argument, used to drive me crazy, too. I do agree that what Brian Wilson wanted, he usually got, and if he really - REALLY - wanted to continue being a Beach Boy, there were ways to accomplish it.
There were/are two options that were/are usually mentioned and then quickly shot down or dismissed. One option would've been to call a corporate vote to change the terms of the licensing. The other way was, if the vote couldn't be accomplished, to take it to court. But that never happened. The two reasons for neither of those options being pursued were a) Brian didn't have enough votes, and b) the cost and time it would've taken for a lawsuit would've been prohibitive.
Assuming Brian and Al would've voted to continue the reunion both in touring and recording, all they would've needed was for Carl's estate to either vote with them or abstain. Maybe Carl's estate would've sided with Brian and Al. If Mike would've "lost" the vote, yes, it probably would've gone to court. However, despite what many fans have said - and I disagree with them vehemently - I don't think it would've been tied up in court for a long time. BRI could've requested, and I think would've been granted, an expedited trial and verdict, based on the unique and time-important aspect of the case (the age of the participants and acting quickly based on the nature of the music business). And, if continuing to be a Beach Boy was so important to Brian (and Al), why would the money be of utmost importance to a couple of multi-millionaires like Brian and Al?
One more thing to keep in mind. Even if the case would've ended up in court for an extended period of time (say two or three years), C50 was now eight years ago. Point? If Brian and Al would've won the case, The Beach Boys (if Mike complied) would've now been back together for what, five or six years?
Are you referring to a point, or argument, of mine? As for your two options - I agree with the first, always have. The second? I'm not sure that's a possibility. You mean, if Brian and Al couldn't win the vote they could take it to court? I don't think they'd have any legal grounds to do so. If Brian REALLY wanted to make it happen, maybe he could facilitate the buyout of Carl's estate (if needed). But, that's the type of distinction I was trying to make earlier - between what Brian could do and what he would do. I don't think Brian would want to go to such lengths to force Mike to play ball. Or did you mean that if Brian/Al couldn't get a vote to occur, then take that to court. I guess they'd have some recourse there, but they'd still need the votes, so... As for the two reasons - the first one is legitimate, the second one is overstated by many fans (I agree with you on that 100% - Mike, as a licensee, is not in a position of power, BRI is). The interesting thing to ponder is if BRI started cracking down on Mike in regard to the license (and possibly going as far as revoking it) would he be willing to continue as a Beach Boy with Brian and Al after that went down? I don't know the answer to that, obviously. But, I certainly wouldn't bet against retiring out of spite. My main point in all of this, though, as it pertains to the Beach Boys, is it's not just up to Brian. Mike and Carl's estate and Al all have an equal say. This isn't up to Brian, it's up to BRI. And it's up to each group member's willingness to cooperate both on tour and in the studio. On the other hand, and getting back to the initial topic of the thread, becoming a solo artist IS something that Brian can decide for himself. For someone of Brian's demeanor (or not), that must be very appealing.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 9, 2020 15:18:00 GMT
And, that point, or argument, used to drive me crazy, too. I do agree that what Brian Wilson wanted, he usually got, and if he really - REALLY - wanted to continue being a Beach Boy, there were ways to accomplish it.
There were/are two options that were/are usually mentioned and then quickly shot down or dismissed. One option would've been to call a corporate vote to change the terms of the licensing. The other way was, if the vote couldn't be accomplished, to take it to court. But that never happened. The two reasons for neither of those options being pursued were a) Brian didn't have enough votes, and b) the cost and time it would've taken for a lawsuit would've been prohibitive.
Assuming Brian and Al would've voted to continue the reunion both in touring and recording, all they would've needed was for Carl's estate to either vote with them or abstain. Maybe Carl's estate would've sided with Brian and Al. If Mike would've "lost" the vote, yes, it probably would've gone to court. However, despite what many fans have said - and I disagree with them vehemently - I don't think it would've been tied up in court for a long time. BRI could've requested, and I think would've been granted, an expedited trial and verdict, based on the unique and time-important aspect of the case (the age of the participants and acting quickly based on the nature of the music business). And, if continuing to be a Beach Boy was so important to Brian (and Al), why would the money be of utmost importance to a couple of multi-millionaires like Brian and Al?
One more thing to keep in mind. Even if the case would've ended up in court for an extended period of time (say two or three years), C50 was now eight years ago. Point? If Brian and Al would've won the case, The Beach Boys (if Mike complied) would've now been back together for what, five or six years?
Are you referring to a point, or argument, of mine? As for your two options - I agree with the first, always have. The second? I'm not sure that's a possibility. You mean, if Brian and Al couldn't win the vote they could take it to court? I don't think they'd have any legal grounds to do so. If Brian REALLY wanted to make it happen, maybe he could facilitate BRI buying out Carl's estate (if needed). But, that's the type of distinction I was trying to make earlier - between what Brian could do and what he would do. I don't think Brian would want to go to such lengths to force Mike to play ball. Or did you mean that if Brian/Al couldn't get a vote to occur, then take that to court. I guess they'd have some recourse there, but they'd still need the votes, so... As for the two reasons - the first one is legitimate, the second one is overstated by many fans (I agree with you on that 100% - Mike, as a licensee, is not in a position of power, BRI is). The interesting thing to ponder is if BRI started cracking down on Mike in regard to the license (and possibly going as far as revoking it) would he be willing to continue as a Beach Boy with Brian and Al after that went down? I don't know the answer to that, obviously. But, I certainly wouldn't bet against retiring out of spite. My main point in all of this, though, as it pertains to the Beach Boys, is it's not just up to Brian. Mike and Carl's estate and Al all have an equal say. This isn't up to Brian, it's up to BRI. And it's up to each group member's willingness to cooperate both on tour and in the studio. On the other hand, and getting back to the initial topic of the thread, becoming a solo artist IS something that Brian can decide for himself. For someone of Brian's demeanor (or not), that must be very appealing. I was mostly responding to kds's point that if Brian and/or Melinda really wanted Brian to be a Beach Boy, somehow that would've happened. I really believe that, too, and pointed out two possible ways that it COULD'VE happened in conjunction with the infamous "break up" in 2012 - a corporate vote and a subsequent lawsuit forcing the issue.
But, I guess I was also continuing to address (or disagree with ) your point that Mike didn't want any part of dealing with Brian. Again, in beating the proverbial dead horse, I think Mike will always want to work with Brian in some capacity, but only on his terms. And, because of those terms (whatever they would've been) a new corporate vote probably would've been necessary, and if Mike was on losing end of that vote, a lawsuit was probably to follow.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Mar 9, 2020 15:24:05 GMT
I wasn't really talking about Brian Wilson touring as "The Beach Boys" when I said that if Brian (or Brian's team) wanted Brian to be a Beach Boy, he'd be a Beach Boy. I was talking about keeping the reunion going, or some version of the reunion. So was I. We were talking about the same thing. In my previous post, though, when I said "Didn't Mike say in the wake of C50 that Brian could have gotten a license for himself if he wanted?", I wasn't clear that (IIRC) Mike was referring back to '98-99. Regardless, in that post, I was applying that mindsight to both '98-99 and post-C50. It doesn't seem like Mike had/has much interest in including Brian and Al in his version of the Beach Boys, does it? I honestly think Mike would've been interested in carrying on with Brian. I'm not at all convinced that Mike was the one who kept that reunion from going on longer.
|
|