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Post by kds on Sept 3, 2019 18:17:09 GMT
Absolutely. Plus, there is the logical fallacy of thinking that because they were in your favorite era of a band, that they were therefore the best talents. That's just silly! They were good enough to play the kind of basic rock and roll that made KISS great. That's not the same thing as being great players, especially once the chemical dependency issues got out of control. I think that would be an interesting thread itself of bandmembers who were part of a classic lineup, but not necessarily the most talented.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 7, 2019 13:19:03 GMT
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 7, 2019 20:31:19 GMT
Those sorts of things are often interesting. One of the best developments in journalism in the past, what, 10-15 years?, has to be that sort of "oral history" or "in their own words" kind of story. The first I recall seeing of them were by Bill Simmons at his ESPN position. Love 'em.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 8, 2019 15:29:21 GMT
KISS, Rock and Roll Over, 1976
After three raw rock and roll studio albums and one (ahem) live album that finally broke them through to the mainstream, KISS finally hit gold—platinum, actually—with 1976’s Destroyer. The album reached #11 on the charts and spawned hit singles and live classics alike, all with a startling cinematic production style (not to mention co-writing and arranging assistance, as well as good, old-fashioned practice time) from Bob Ezrin.
So it was natural that the band’s next album would be … not remotely that. Rock and Roll Over more closely matched the first three studio albums in its relatively straight-ahead arrangements and production style.
Where it differed from those earlier efforts was the quality of the engineering and production: simplicity isn’t the same as mediocrity, by any means. Eddie Kramer had by this time not only produced Alive!, but had engineered or produced the likes of Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, David Bowie, Carly Simon, and even the Beatles.
Rock and Roll Over is a clear, crisp rock and roll album. The playing is good, maybe a carryover from the newfound discipline that Ezrin installed on its predecessor. The singing, too, is as strong as ever, such as in the classic Gene-and-Paul harmonies of “Ladies Room” and “Mr. Speed,” or Peter Criss’s lead on Paul Stanley’s “Hard Luck Woman.”
And those performances shine with the top-notch recordings helmed by Kramer. This wasn’t a regression so much as a return to the core of the band’s sound. And in fact, it wasn’t as if it abandoned all the tools of the studio: there are acoustic guitar overdubs, occasional guitar effects that take it out of the natural band-playing-live affair. It sounds almost like Destroyer minus the bells and whistle (or rather, minus the strings and crying children…).
The album is mostly carried by Stanley and Gene Simmons. As great as Criss’s performance is on the “Maggie May” wannabe, “Hard Luck Woman” is a Stanley-penned song, as are “Mr. Speed,” “I Want You,” “Makin’ Love,” and “Take Me.” Simmons had standouts “Ladies Room,” “Calling Dr. Love,” and especially “See You In Your Dreams” (which he revisited a few years later on his solo album). Ace Frehley is sadly absent as a leading presence after eight songwriting credits spanning the first four studio albums.
The result of it all was another #11 album, a platinum seller, spawning two top-20 hits (“Hard Luck Woman” at #15, “Calling Dr. Love” at #16).
The album may not feature a lot of stone-cold classics like “Strutter,” “Rock and Roll All Nite,” “Beth,” or “Shout It Out Loud,” but in avoiding any real clunkers, it makes for one of the more consistent listens of any KISS album. It’s an album on which each song elicits an “oh yeah! I love this song!” (At least from me.)
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 8, 2019 18:08:08 GMT
I should add this is one of the albums you see named by big KISS fans as a dark horse favorite album, similar to how 20 or 25 years ago the rebel Beatles fan might pick Revolver or the white album. It's not an obvious choice, but there is enough to like about it that a knowledgeable fan can explain the position without being laughed out of the room.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 8, 2019 21:42:36 GMT
I didn't purchase this album but I'm familiar with it. One thing you have to say about KISS - they were consistent. Every KISS album had its share of aces (no pun intended), and Rock And Roll Over is no exception. These guys knew the formula, knew how to write songs. "I Want You", "Calling Dr. Love", "Hard Luck Woman", and "Makin' Love" are vintage KISS; great songs. I also like "Ladies Room" and "Love 'Em And Leave 'Em". And, of course, the same with the lead vocals; very high quality as usual.
I agree with the Kapitan. Rock And Roll Over is just a straight ahead, back-to-basics, hard rockin' KISS album. Give 'em what they want. Ten 3:00-3:30 minute songs, just the way I like them. Looks like Peter Criss was finding his niche as the group's "sensitive" singer. Nice album cover, too.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not being critical or complaining, but two questions: Why did the band kinda "return to the roots" after spreading their wings on Destroyer, and after all the praise for Bob Ezrin's work on Destroyer, why did they switch to Eddie Kramer?
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 8, 2019 21:50:20 GMT
Why did the band kinda "return to the roots" after spreading their wings on Destroyer, and after all the praise for Bob Ezrin's work on Destroyer, why did they switch to Eddie Kramer? I wish I knew.
I have guesses, and I think the two questions are two sides of the coin (to add my own Ace Frehley pun). Ezrin drove them hard, and he expanded their sound further than what they, the band itself, intended. I think they were thrilled to have the success of a ballad like "Beth," hence "Hard Luck Woman." But I don't think they really felt that they could keep being KISS if they were going to feature orchestras, pianos, sound effects, etc. I don't think they were artistically interested in going the direction Bob Ezrin took them, results be damned. Their audience was expanded to include some women (or girls, more likely) from "Beth," but realistically their bread and butter was going to be teenage boys who wanted to rawk.
So I think they wanted to take a certain amount of the professionalism of Destroyer--Gene and Paul ain't dumb--but apply it to a more bread and butter sound.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 10, 2019 22:40:52 GMT
Paul's an opinionated son-of-a-gun isn't he? I used to think it was only Gene.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 11, 2019 0:21:47 GMT
Paul can definitely be opinionated. But I don’t understand his problem with the engineering of this album. Sounds good to me. If he wanted it to sound as good as Zep, maybe he and his band should try to play like Zep...
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Post by kds on Sept 12, 2019 12:56:16 GMT
Paul's an opinionated son-of-a-gun isn't he? I used to think it was only Gene.
No Paul has decided to speak out on politics. KISS seemed to be one of the last bands you didn't have to worry about that stuff from.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 12, 2019 13:00:15 GMT
Yes, there is something funny about Star Child going on about libertarian-conservative politics!
EDIT: to his credit, though, he seems like a smart guy, pretty well informed about his positions.
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Post by kds on Sept 12, 2019 13:11:52 GMT
I'm sure he's a smart guy. He and Paul are obviously great businessmen. But, I feel like every aspect of life these days is becoming political.
Anyway, I've been guilty of overlooking this album for being sandwiched between Destroyer and Love Gun, but I really enjoy it. I Want You in particular is a great opener, but I honestly think the album would've sounded better had Ezrin been kept on board.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 12, 2019 13:21:07 GMT
Yes, I agree with you: everyone seems to want to make everything politics. There’s a time and place for everything, and I think we agree that when we’re listening to KISS, maybe that’s not the time for a lesson on free market economy or the moral hazard of government benefits! (I only added that “edit” comment because I didn’t want to come across as insulting the man’s intelligence. It’s not that at all.) I also have always overlooked Rock and Roll Over to some extent. While I don’t remember why—probably just the lack of easily available information in those days—I grew up thinking it was after Alive! and before Destroyer, and I liked it more in that context. For some reason its placement between probably the two best KISS studio albums bothers me. Maybe it’s that the sound of this continued growth through Destroyer made sense, with Love Gun a slightly less dramatic but still absolutely top-notch album, as the choice of a band on top of the world. R&RO, though interrupts that idea more and is instead a pretty significant drop from both the albums that came before and after. Doesn’t matter in reality, but I always liked it more the way I mistakenly understood it as a kid. Ezrin producing … I don’t know if it would have sounded better. The sound is good, imo. I’m sure he would have added some flourishes here and there, but do the songs call out for more pianos, organs, strings, and inevitable Ezrin kids crying? I’m not sure what he would have added to improve it. (I say that as someone who likes Ezrin.)
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Post by kds on Sept 12, 2019 13:26:43 GMT
I just think that the album, I Want To in particular, isn't mixed well. The drums sound like they're mixed a little high, and it sounds almost demo-ish, especially compared to the Alive II version.
From a sonic perspective, it would actually make more sense if Rock and Roll Over came before Destroyer and Love Gun.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 13, 2019 2:36:32 GMT
When Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley first started to "talk", they were very crude and demeaning to women and I kinda wished they would've just shut up. But then I got used to it and realized it was just part of their schtick. They were almost becoming the personas or cartoon characters that they created with their makeup! As they both got older and married, they toned it down a bit, but then they directed their attacks on Ace and Peter. Again, at first I wished they would NOT have aired their dirty laundry, but, on the other hand, interviewers kept asking and they were just telling the truth, and I respected that. I didn't think the comments were productive, but...It almost resembled the Mike Love school of interviewing.
Now, today, all of the members of KISS appear to be all over the place with their interviews and opinions. They seem to have an opinion on everything. I still wish they would be a little more...considerate...of others they choose to attack, but then they wouldn't be KISS. For a group who wrote relatively straightforward and simple lyrics, they are one of the more intelligent bands. I used to watch that Gene Simmons reality show, Gene Simmons' Family Jewels, and I found Gene fascinating. He certainly wasn't a phony. The man was obsessed with money and didn't apologize for it. He put that facelift out there for everybody to see (although that was also a ratings ploy). I guess it would be a nice story if before they go to the great Room Service in the sky - or Rock And Roll Hell - that they make their peace with each other.
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