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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Oct 6, 2021 3:11:04 GMT
Good evening! I am not a political person. Someone in one of our chats said it would be nice to get a female perspective on the BB music. After reading her comment, I started to think about it. Most BB songs, if not all, are written from the male perspective. Sometimes, the lyrics are even cringy. Is this an issue? To me, I enjoy the music and the harmonies, and lyrics are secondary. Times were different 50 to 60 years ago. Do the Beach Boys get a pass because of this?
As always anyone is welcome to answer, but I would appreciate the female perspective here.
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Post by jk on Oct 6, 2021 10:19:57 GMT
Hi Matt. I hope you're well. We have had a very active female poster here of late. It would be cool if she were to reappear to comment in this thread.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 6, 2021 11:26:36 GMT
Good evening! I am not a political person. Someone in one of our chats said it would be nice to get a female perspective on the BB music. After reading her comment, I started to think about it. Most BB songs, if not all, are written from the male perspective. Sometimes, the lyrics are even cringy. Is this an issue? To me, I enjoy the music and the harmonies, and lyrics are secondary. Times were different 50 to 60 years ago. Do the Beach Boys get a pass because of this? As always anyone is welcome to answer, but I would appreciate the female perspective here. I think it was, like you said, and to quote a Carl Wilson song...of the times. And, The Beach Boys were certainly not the only group with cringe-worthy lyrics. Most of the "boy bands" around that time, and even earlier, were doing it. The first time you hear them, you might wince a bit, but you just accept them and move on. I wouldn't call it "giving them a pass", but, obviously they wouldn't write lyrics like that today, though some of Mike's stuff...
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Post by jk on Oct 6, 2021 11:42:02 GMT
I think it was, like you said, and to quote a Carl Wilson song...of the times. And, The Beach Boys were certainly not the only group with cringe-worthy lyrics. Most of the "boy bands" around that time, and even earlier, were doing it. The first time you hear them, you might wince a bit, but you just accept them and move on. I wouldn't call it "giving them a pass", but, obviously they wouldn't write lyrics like that today, though some of Mike's stuff... Ooohh! A cruel thrust, Sheriff.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 6, 2021 11:49:45 GMT
I think it was, like you said, and to quote a Carl Wilson song...of the times. And, The Beach Boys were certainly not the only group with cringe-worthy lyrics. Most of the "boy bands" around that time, and even earlier, were doing it. The first time you hear them, you might wince a bit, but you just accept them and move on. I wouldn't call it "giving them a pass", but, obviously they wouldn't write lyrics like that today, though some of Mike's stuff... Ooohh! A cruel thrust, Sheriff. Yeah, maybe that was a little tough on Mike, but he does have a tendency to stay stuck in the past with his song/musical ideas.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 6, 2021 12:23:47 GMT
Most BB songs, if not all, are written from the male perspective. Sometimes, the lyrics are even cringy. Is this an issue? To me, I enjoy the music and the harmonies, and lyrics are secondary. Times were different 50 to 60 years ago. Do the Beach Boys get a pass because of this? I think it's objectively a reality, whether or not it's objectively an issue. "An issue" makes me think "to whom? In what way? To what end?" It's a gray, individualized set of questions or issues (or non-issues).
The lyrics were overwhelmingly if not exclusively from a male perspective, and more specifically from a typical, straight, white male of that era's perspective. That's just a fact.
Culture changes over time, and culture has probably changed more over the past 50-60 years than it did in any similar period prior. That's also just a fact.
So naturally we'll relate less to, or find fault/disconnect with, earlier cultural norms. Whether those are "wrongs to be remedied" or "historical artifacts" or something else is subjective.
In terms of the lyrics, the ones that jump out as most offensive to me aren't the then-more-typical way to speaking to or about women, but a duo that border on criminal: "Hey Little Tomboy" and "Roller Skating Child." And worst, those weren't from 1963, written by 20-year-olds, but from the mid-late 70s, written by a thirtysomething man. Do I give Brian Wilson a pass? No, he's responsible for writing them. But is there some punishment for that? No.
The rest of it, the generally now-anachronistic way of speaking to/about women? Sad historical reality, but you can't change the past, and we've already changed the present. The music is much bigger than its occasionally outdated, mildly offensive perspectives on gender. And if that would warrant a person's focus and ire, I pity that person, because there's a lot, lot, lot more where that comes from (which is in the past, mostly), and your life will be miserable as you dive ever deeper into uncovering such artifacts. As I said above, to what end? You would lose basically the entirety of written history if the Beach Boys lyrics are an example of crossing the line.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 6, 2021 13:04:56 GMT
One specific gender-related decision they made in their lyrics that I think is interesting--and in hindsight, the exact wrong decision--was in their cover of "Then He Kissed Me." Rather than going the simple route that would also maintain the poetry (such as it was) of the original with "and then she kissed me," they reversed it to the clunky "and then I kissed her."
I suppose the idea was, "girls don't kiss boys, that's ridiculous. We don't want her to be a slut. Let's say then I kissed her, the way it should be." But the lyrical changes made the song nonsense. Instead of a song of longing--"this was the object of my affection, I've been pining away for him/her, and YES! HE KISSED ME!"--it becomes "I really liked her so I kissed her." OK. Cool.
A decade later, KISS covered the same song and left it alone, just switching to "then she kissed me." Much better decision.
(Part of me wishes they'd really blown people's minds and literally left it alone, "then he kissed me," like Brian did decades later with "I Loves You, Porgy." Imagine that in the mid 60s from a popular group.)
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Post by carllove on Oct 6, 2021 14:44:56 GMT
From the female perspective, the lyrics, especially Tony Asher's from Pet Sounds, are what initially drew me in to the music. They are very "sensitive" in the way that Tony took Brian's ideas and feelings during a difficult time in Brian's marriage and expressed them in such a beautiful, heartfelt way. "God Only Knows", "Don't Talk" and "Caroline, No" all show such human emotion in the lyrics. Also, what girl wouldn't want Dennis to sing her some of those sappy lyrics of his.
Yes, some of the earlier songs are a bit cringy ("Farmer's Daughter" and "The Little Girl I Once Knew" - come to mind), but it was of the time. I'm not big on political correctness anyway, so those songs don't bother me. I don't hear any disrespect of women in the songs. It's boys singing about girl's in a more innocent time.
Sometimes I am amazed at the insight the lyrics can have though - "When girl's gettin' mad at boys and go, Many times they're just putting on a show". A lot of guys don't know that, but girls do.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 6, 2021 18:28:05 GMT
Veering off the lyrics and into fandom...
It's interesting to me how the BBs message boards have been overwhelmingly male for as long as I've been a part of them (which is going on 20 years). At least, they seem to be: obviously, I can't verify people's gender via the internet. But I'd bet it has been at least 80/20. And in my real life experience, fans roughly in my peer/age group are probably also at least 3/4 male, if not more. I don't know a single hardcore female fan in real life. That strikes me as a little odd, in that the Beach Boys--and especially the music of the Wilsons--seems like it would appeal to women as well as men.
But to expand on that, I know very few women who are the kind of hardcore music fans about any artists in the way that several men I know are. That makes me wonder whether a certain sort of fandom is more common among men generally than it is among women, regardless of the artist in question.
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Post by kds on Oct 6, 2021 18:41:24 GMT
Veering off the lyrics and into fandom...
It's interesting to me how the BBs message boards have been overwhelmingly male for as long as I've been a part of them (which is going on 20 years). At least, they seem to be: obviously, I can't verify people's gender via the internet. But I'd bet it has been at least 80/20. And in my real life experience, fans roughly in my peer/age group are probably also at least 3/4 male, if not more. I don't know a single hardcore female fan in real life. That strikes me as a little odd, in that the Beach Boys--and especially the music of the Wilsons--seems like it would appeal to women as well as men.
But to expand on that, I know very few women who are the kind of hardcore music fans about any artists in the way that several men I know are. That makes me wonder whether a certain sort of fandom is more common among men generally than it is among women, regardless of the artist in question.
In my experience, hard core music fandom / geekdom seems to be a lot more male centric. I honestly think one of the mistakes I made when I'd meet girls in my 20s was talking too much about music. Just as a very small sample, my wife loves music, but she's not going to sit down with me and watch the Sea of Tranquility YT Channel, or a feature length music documentary. EDIT - Also, I used to attend record conventions where vendors sold records, tapes, CDs, memorabilia, as sometimes, bootlegs. The attendees were overwhelmingly male. Same goes for the record stores I used to frequent.
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Post by lonelysummer on Oct 6, 2021 19:52:45 GMT
Veering off the lyrics and into fandom...
It's interesting to me how the BBs message boards have been overwhelmingly male for as long as I've been a part of them (which is going on 20 years). At least, they seem to be: obviously, I can't verify people's gender via the internet. But I'd bet it has been at least 80/20. And in my real life experience, fans roughly in my peer/age group are probably also at least 3/4 male, if not more. I don't know a single hardcore female fan in real life. That strikes me as a little odd, in that the Beach Boys--and especially the music of the Wilsons--seems like it would appeal to women as well as men.
But to expand on that, I know very few women who are the kind of hardcore music fans about any artists in the way that several men I know are. That makes me wonder whether a certain sort of fandom is more common among men generally than it is among women, regardless of the artist in question.
In my experience, hard core music fandom / geekdom seems to be a lot more male centric. I honestly think one of the mistakes I made when I'd meet girls in my 20s was talking too much about music. Just as a very small sample, my wife loves music, but she's not going to sit down with me and watch the Sea of Tranquility YT Channel, or a feature length music documentary. EDIT - Also, I used to attend record conventions where vendors sold records, tapes, CDs, memorabilia, as sometimes, bootlegs. The attendees were overwhelmingly male. Same goes for the record stores I used to frequent. This is still true. The shows I go to are dominated by the men. The men are the ones selling the records. The wives are there for moral support. Much of the conversation I have with the wives and girlfriends has nothing to do with music.
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Post by kds on Oct 6, 2021 19:59:56 GMT
In my experience, hard core music fandom / geekdom seems to be a lot more male centric. I honestly think one of the mistakes I made when I'd meet girls in my 20s was talking too much about music. Just as a very small sample, my wife loves music, but she's not going to sit down with me and watch the Sea of Tranquility YT Channel, or a feature length music documentary. EDIT - Also, I used to attend record conventions where vendors sold records, tapes, CDs, memorabilia, as sometimes, bootlegs. The attendees were overwhelmingly male. Same goes for the record stores I used to frequent. This is still true. The shows I go to are dominated by the men. The men are the ones selling the records. The wives are there for moral support. Much of the conversation I have with the wives and girlfriends has nothing to do with music. I figured so, even though I haven't attended one in over ten years now.
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 518
Likes: 530
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Post by Emdeeh on Oct 6, 2021 20:47:43 GMT
From this woman's POV, the male perspective of Beach Boys music usually doesn't bother me. But I'm also a first-generation fan, growing up with the music as new releases, so I have some personal perspective of the era in which these songs were created. There are a few genuinely cringe-worthy songs that I can't stand due to the lyrics ("Hey Little Tomboy" comes immediately to mind), but mostly I just skip the songs I don't like and play the heck out of the ones I love. I relate more to the music, the harmonies, and lead vocals that move me.
I do remember a time when the BBs and other male groups' audiences were mostly female, but the bands and we gals were young then -- and the BBs had a very cute drummer. I stayed a fan because the music and the people who made it continue to move me, and I'm the one taking my husband to the show. (It does work the other way too.)
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Post by carllove on Oct 8, 2021 1:35:34 GMT
From this woman's POV, the male perspective of Beach Boys music usually doesn't bother me. But I'm also a first-generation fan, growing up with the music as new releases, so I have some personal perspective of the era in which these songs were created. There are a few genuinely cringe-worthy songs that I can't stand due to the lyrics ("Hey Little Tomboy" comes immediately to mind), but mostly I just skip the songs I don't like and play the heck out of the ones I love. I relate more to the music, the harmonies, and lead vocals that move me. I do remember a time when the BBs and other male groups' audiences were mostly female, but the bands and we gals were young then -- and the BBs had a very cute drummer. I stayed a fan because the music and the people who made it continue to move me, and I'm the one taking my husband to the show. (It does work the other way too.) Emdeeh, What a wonderful experience that must have been! I always love hearing your viewpoint. To have been at an age to grow up with the music, is so different than someone like me, who learned to appreciate the band later in life. I am always excited when you post here. Not sure if you heard of my experience at the 1986 Beach Boys/ Moody Blues concert, where I pretty much took a bathroom break during “God Only Knows”. What the heck? I was there to see the Moody Blues. Couldn’t have cared less about The Beach Boys. I had no idea about Pet Sounds or Sunflower back then. I hate myself for that. I saw the most amazing man ever, Carl Wilson, perform in concert, and I didn’t even pay attention. I’m taking my husband to the long delayed Beach Boys concert at the Kaufman center in February, and he is less than enthusiastic.
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Post by carllove on Oct 8, 2021 2:07:18 GMT
In my experience, hard core music fandom / geekdom seems to be a lot more male centric. I honestly think one of the mistakes I made when I'd meet girls in my 20s was talking too much about music. Just as a very small sample, my wife loves music, but she's not going to sit down with me and watch the Sea of Tranquility YT Channel, or a feature length music documentary. EDIT - Also, I used to attend record conventions where vendors sold records, tapes, CDs, memorabilia, as sometimes, bootlegs. The attendees were overwhelmingly male. Same goes for the record stores I used to frequent. Well kds, if you had met me then, I would have just ate up all that music talk! I guess I am one of those rare geeky girls who actually spent over $500 on a promo only 45 of Dennis Wilson and Rumbo’s Sound of Free/Lady. I just had to have it.
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