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Post by Kapitan on Aug 12, 2021 14:50:20 GMT
Beach Boys fans online spend a lot of time criticizing the band. Part of this is about the inconsistency of the catalog: the bad choices, the filler tracks, the confounding detours. How can a band capable of such greatness be capable of such mediocrity (and sometimes worse)?
One thing that going through other artists' catalogs on this board has helped me with is not missing the forest for the trees on that topic: other very good and great artists had their fair share of mediocrity, of head-scratchers, of (let's be honest) garbage.
We've worked through Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, the Beatles, the former Beatles (in progress), Queen, Led Zeppelin--all classic artists or bands. Every single one of them has more than a little to complain about. The Beatles probably were most consistently strongest, but we found plenty even there to call out.
There are (at least) a couple of ways to consider this whole topic, then. One is that if you spend enough time considering anything, you're bound to find fault, or at least things you'd change. Another is that the mere fact of this ought not be taken too seriously, in that its probably as much a product of your focus as of anything inherent in the artist. And another is that the bar of perfection is not only unattainably high, but not objective from person to person.
I say all this because I know sometimes people of an even grouchier personality than mine chime in "all Beach Boys fans do is find fault." And I say to them: maybe, kind of, but relax. Obviously anyone willing to spend the time on the group loves them; but it would be tedious pretty quickly to have nothing but "I love THIS most!" "ME TOO! I Also love that!" "OMG, that's great too!" That's not conversation, it's blind worship that approaches mutual masturbation.
But in addition to combat the "negative response to negativity" (for lack of a better phrase describing that criticism described above), I also say it as a reminder to us all, just in case anyone needs it, that the Beach Boys' catalog is actually really, really strong. Maybe not quite unmatched in its consistently strong material over such a long time, but honestly it's right up there.
So yeah, if I may understate it: it's ok.
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Post by kds on Aug 12, 2021 15:21:13 GMT
I think one of the big advantages that the catalogs of The Beatles and Led Zeppelin had was that they were short. Each band lasted a decade, so they didn't suffer the inevitable valleys that many legacy artists do. Listening to the Beatles solo catalog, I have no doubt that they would've put out some clunkers had they stayed together.
I've said it before, but had The Beach Boys called it a day in 1974, or maybe even 1977, their overall body of work would be far more revered both by hardcore fans and casual fans. It also doesn't help that their chief creator, Brian Wilson, sort of lost the plot. Yeah, the rest of the guys rallied for a bit to fill in the gaps that Brian normally would've filled, and even got some outside help from Ricky and Blondie for a couple albums, but that model, probably wasn't sustainable.
So, for better, or for worse, there has really never been a time since late 1961 where The Beach Boys didn't exist in one form or another. On one hand, you can applaud them for going out year after year after year and keeping the music from their prime years in the live arena. On the other hand, there's the argument that, perhaps had they done less shows and focused more on their studio output, there would be more to show from the last 40+ years of Beach Boys releases, not that there aren't some nuggets in there.
But, I'd agree, that taken as a total body of work, The Beach Boys catalog is definitely something to celebrate and enjoy.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 12, 2021 16:29:37 GMT
I think I want to or should be commenting, but I'm not sure what direction to take, or what you're looking for, Kapitan. Were you just making a point; did you want us to agree or disagree? I'm good at the latter.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 12, 2021 16:31:41 GMT
I think I want to or should be commenting, but I'm not sure what direction to take, or what you're looking for, Kapitan. Were you just making a point; did you want us to agree or disagree? I'm good at the latter. Take it wherever you'd like, I was all over the map. I was making points from multiple perspectives, really. So feel free to just go wherever you want with it ... and be ready for pushback regardless of what you say!
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 12, 2021 17:04:57 GMT
Well, I've been a fan for a long time, and if you're a long-time Beach Boys' fan, there's a lot of material out there to complain about. I don't think I'm a "serial complainer", you know, one who complains repeatedly to get their jollies, who complains for the sake of complaining, or has no merit - meaning no basis or logic behind the complaining - and just likes to troll and get attention.
All of that being said, the consistent reading and discussing and analyzing does lead a Beach Boys' fan to raising serious - and valid - questions. I think I have a pretty good grasp on "why" things happened over the last 60 years. It doesn't always make it easier to accept, but you learn to live with it and enjoy what you can, which is obviously a lot of music. I came to realize why the circumstances changed, why the band members changed, and ultimately why the music changed. That still doesn't excuse all of the terrible decisions that were consistently made, and are still being made as I type this (hello Feel Flows delay).
Like I said, in the end, we still have all of the wonderful music, but there is still a part of...that...which still bothers me and undoubtedly always will. And, this is that part. I wish the group, and that includes the band members and the record company, would've made better choices with their albums (in several ways) and their singles. Yes, I realize that a bunch of teenagers/young men and money-hungry record company people never thought that their decisions would be analyzed and debated 60 years down the road, and that the people doing the second-guessing would have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight.
OK, I'll get right to the point. The Beach Boys and their associates had no clue how to assemble the strongest albums possible and release the best singles possible to help promote those albums. And, in my opinion, this started on Day One. Too many Beach Boys' albums were too short, included weak(er) songs while strong(er) ones were left in the can, had the wrong choice of producer, had questionable sequencing, had terrible album titles, had terrible album covers, and had poor choices for singles. Or, and I can't leave this one out - when an album never came to fruition at all (see 2013-14). If you take each of these complaints individually, it doesn't add up to much, and doesn't ultimately make much difference in the history of the band. But, when you take them as a whole, and if you could magically change ALL of them, then I think it does make a significant difference. And, I'm not talking about just one or two albums, or a couple of weak songs, or a poor single here or there. I'm talking about SEVERAL and at key junctures in their career.
Who do you blame? Brian, who made many of the (final) decisions in the early days. The group after Brian stepped away and it became more of a democracy? The record company? Again, do you blame the guys for not employing a strong, knowledgeable manager? I'm not going to list all of the key points/stages in their career when the stars were aligned for something special - and they blew it. Big time. But, even the most non-pompous, understanding, reasonable, forgiving fan would look at some of these decisions and ask, "What in the hell were they thinking?"
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 12, 2021 17:15:57 GMT
I really can't quite disagree with you.
My real purpose in posting was just that any group/artist with a long career tends to have baffling moments that make you scratch your head, or low points where they chased trends unsuccessfully, or personal issues that seem to have distracted them from music, or just running out of ideas, or whatever else.
And also that, yes, for all those low points, the band still did have amazing music in the early, middle, and late periods. Music that obviously--really by definition--brought all of us (I suppose any trolls notwithstanding) including everyone at other boards to the point of feeling it's worth being part of online communities and discussing again and again.
I guess you could say I meant it all in terms of perspective. That I think we all agree that we all love the band deeply, and that criticism--even harsh and repeated criticism--is not the same as hating the band and just getting a thrill out of talking trash. That all these things can be true at the same time, a great catalog of music and a long history of terrible choices or bad material.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 12, 2021 17:23:29 GMT
I understand your points and I agree with them. But I have to say, and maybe it's because the group has a 60 year history, but The Beach Boys are in a class by themselves when it comes to questionable, baffling decisions. I can't even think of a close second. It. Never. Ends.
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Post by kds on Aug 12, 2021 18:04:33 GMT
There's no doubt that The Beach Boys history is full of questionable decisions. From releasing Ten Little Indians as a single in 1962 to the debacle of 2012 (and not even the end of the reunion, I think the members and management should've been a lot more upfront about the situation rather that allow wild speculation to happen for nearly a decade now). Of course, The Beach Boys own quite possibly the biggest WTF in rock/pop history with the non release of Smile.
I also think that, despite the almost baffling (when you consider their history) perfection that is Pet Sounds, the band were never able to truly make the transition from singles band to album band, like The Beatles, Who, & Pink Floyd did. That had to have hurt their standing going into the 70s.
But, at the end of the day, despite only really having one truly great album, they have a hell of a collection of songs.
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Post by kds on Aug 12, 2021 18:06:49 GMT
I understand your points and I agree with them. But I have to say, and maybe it's because the group has a 60 year history, but The Beach Boys are in a class by themselves when it comes to questionable, baffling decisions. I can't even think of a close second. It. Never. Ends. I think there are groups that have a history of odd decisions, but you're right, none of them did it for sixty years.
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Post by bellesofparisstan on Aug 12, 2021 18:26:20 GMT
I think the inconsistency of the catalog actually makes it a lot more interesting. Unlike, say, the Beatles, where everyone pretty much agrees that rubber soul, revolver, Sergeant Pepper, the White album, and Abbey Road are 10/10 classic albums and most people have them in their top five or top 10, with the Beach boys its exactly the opposite. They have one album that everyone agrees on. Everyone agrees that pet sounds is the masterpiece, the untouchable king of the catalog. But below that? You couldn’t find people who have identical opinions on the catalog. I’ve seen people put love you at number two, and other people put love you at number 29. I’ve heard people say that 15 Big Ones is a bland uninspired piece of trash, and I’ve heard other people say that its their most inspired and engaging work since sunflower. The opinions of the catalog are all over the place, which makes the community so much more vibrant and interesting. Not to mention, over 60 years they have recorded so much music, tuns and tuns of it still unheard or restricted to crappy bootlegs, whereas a band like the Beatles? Once you hear the albums and the singles and the anthology projects, there’s not much more to hear. I remember about a year ago, I thought I pretty much knew the catalog like the back of my hand… and then someone uploaded Mari to YouTube. A basically completely finished song from 1963 with a doubled brian lead Vocal that I had never even heard before? Where is this coming from. There’s just so much music and so much more to discover that, in my opinion, the inconsistency and vast amount of the catalog is one of the advantages of a group like The BBs. And the different types of music between the different albums, and certain people preferring certain sounds to others also makes the catalog a lot more interesting to talk about. As mentioned earlier on this thread, who wants to sit around and say “that’s Great, that’s great, that’s great, that’s great, 10 out of 10, 10 out of 10, 10 out of 10, 10 out of 10.” That gets extremely boring after a while
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 12, 2021 18:34:29 GMT
YES.
And not only do different people at any one time disagree on the band, it seems to me that the general trends of which of their stuff is good or bad changes. When I began my fandom in the late '90s, it was very rare to hear anyone at all praise LA, for example. 15 Big Ones, which you mentioned, was another one you'd almost never hear much positivity about. Frankly even Wild Honey and 20/20 were pretty regularly shat on.
That was the era of the Brianista, at least as I experienced it on the various boards and through media. It was along the lines of: - Everything pre-Pet Sounds was just Brian working his way up to the masterpiece - The Smile mythology - Brian retreats and the band sucks until a few early '70s albums that are better than you might think - Endless Summer onward all crap except Love You
I'm not saying EVERYONE thought that, but it was at least the common perspective I noticed from online fans, not counting those who had been with the band the whole time. (There were always those people who were fans in real time who praised the early hits, for example.)
Twenty years later, the general mindset (if there is one) is very, very different. The music hasn't changed a bit, obviously! But tastes change over time, and so watching people interact with different fans--old ones, new ones, generation after generation--while different albums are rereleased in different ways or different outtakes come to light or different interviews, documentaries, etc., is fascinating.
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Post by kds on Aug 12, 2021 18:49:19 GMT
I've not been on the BB web world quite as long, having first joined in 2014, but I do feel like some of the post Love You albums get a little more love these days.
Will there ever see a time when MIU, LA, or even BB85 are put on a pedestal like Sunflower or Surf's Up? I doubt it, but it seems like fans are noticing that there's some good stuff to be found.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 12, 2021 18:53:05 GMT
Will there ever see a time when MIU, LA, or even BB85 are put on a pedestal like Sunflower or Surf's Up? I doubt it, but it seems like fans are noticing that there's some good stuff to be found. There are definitely people who put LA right up there. I don't think that's quite a common opinion--I almost wrote "consensus" opinion, but I think bellesofparisstan is right that there really isn't a consensus opinion after Pet Sounds--but it is an increasingly common one. Our very own jk put it among his 10 desert island albums (as the only BBs album).
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 12, 2021 18:54:16 GMT
And, record company after record company kept...letting them go.
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Post by kds on Aug 12, 2021 18:55:41 GMT
Will there ever see a time when MIU, LA, or even BB85 are put on a pedestal like Sunflower or Surf's Up? I doubt it, but it seems like fans are noticing that there's some good stuff to be found. There are definitely people who put LA right up there. I don't think that's quite a common opinion--I almost wrote "consensus" opinion, but I think bellesofparisstan is right that there really isn't a consensus opinion after Pet Sounds--but it is an increasingly common one. Our very own jk put it among his 10 desert island albums (as the only BBs album). I suspect that the fact that HCTN'79 takes up such a big part of the album tends to hurt the album overall, but there's a lot of really good songs on it. Other than that song, it's more or less The Beach Boys' "yacht rock" album, a subgenre that I really think they could've embraced and excelled in.
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