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Post by kds on Jul 21, 2021 13:36:14 GMT
The idea of "the Beach Boys held Brian back" was really studio-oriented, that post-Smile breakdown where first we had David Anderle, Paul Williams, and whoever else, and then a few years later David Leaf doing his first writing about it. It was that Brian, given his druthers, would be creating experimental masterpieces in the studio, but the Beach Boys wanted to be an oldies act to cash in.
I don't think anyone expected, or expects, to be blown away by Brian's live performances, and that's what you mostly talked about in that post. But it's certainly true that when he began touring, his band was superior to the Beach Boys. And his band did do more rarities. So I think the idea grew that his genius would be reflected in set lists and the band being able to recreate his music (while he mostly watched). Then the bands became more similar over time, as was discussed above.
As for people still showing some reverence toward Brian...I'd say it's due. He's an old man 50+ years past his prime now, but damned if he wasn't one of the most brilliant pop composers and producers (not to mention an amazing singer) of all time. Reverence is warranted, even if the days of genius are overwhelmingly behind him.
Well, I had good intentions. I started out agreeing with lonelysummer and kds's posts about the double standard that exists with Brian playing the hits, much like Mike who has been consistently criticized for it. Then I veered off to the recording side. While it might not be a double standard as it relates to Mike Love, I still see something of a double standard - comparing today's Brian Wilson with the Brian Wilson of the 1960's. And I do see that, almost regularly in fact. Like I posted above, most journalists and most fans, BB diehards or just the average music fan, STILL compare or refer to Brian as the guy who did this and did that, all of which he did a half century ago, and that surely he must be doing the same thing today. Either they aren't aware that the Brian Wilson of today, or for the last 30 years for that matter, is just a shadow of that artist. It used to bother me more; I've now grown accustomed to it, though obviously not completely. Oh, it's not going to change, and I wonder how much of the reason is sympathy, something Mike Love will never receive.
You mentioned the term "reverence". No argument here. Of course Brian deserves that, and he certainly receives his share. But, doesn't there come a time, oh, maybe after fifty years, where his new records and current live performances should be previewed and reviewed, not by what he did, but by what he IS DOING TODAY. It's easy for me to sit here and say that; I don't have to publish the criticism. But, I wouldn't call that being irreverent. Maybe just being honest. What a concept, huh. I think, like any act that's been doing is for nearly 60 years, most fans who attend the concerts aren't as caught up in what the artist is doing currently. If Paul McCartney were judged by current output, he surely wouldn't be selling out stadiums and arenas for big bucks. And, I think that honest assessment you're speaking of is probably why such a prolific touring artist has released so few live albums in recent years, while some of his peers churn out live product as much as, if not more than, studio product.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 22, 2021 15:59:47 GMT
I wonder what this set list is actually going to look like. I know it's promoted as greatest hits, but that may also just really be an indication that it's not an album-themed show. It doesn't necessarily mean we're looking exclusively at the biggest hits.
As such, it might actually incorporate more deep cuts or rarities than the Pet Sounds shows, which really were basically a hits set and a PS set (which is basically a hits set).
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Post by kds on Jul 22, 2021 16:09:05 GMT
Here's the setlist from the BW show I attended last January that was billed as a "Greatest Hits" show.
1. California Girls 2. Dance, Dance, Dance 3. I Get Around 4. Shut Down 5. Little Deuce Coupe 6. Little Honda 7. Salt Lake City 8. Surfer Girl 9. Don't Worry Baby 10. California Saga: California 11. Do It Again 12. Let Him Run Wild 13. Darlin' 14. Heroes and Villains 15. Feel Flows 16. Wild Honey 17. Sail On, Sailor 18. I Can Hear Music 19. Wouldn't It Be Nice 20. Sloop John B 21. God Only Knows 22. Good Vibrations 23. Help Me, Rhonda 24. Barbara Ann 25. Surfin' U.S.A. 26. Fun, Fun, Fun 27. Love and Mercy
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Jul 22, 2021 16:17:05 GMT
I didn't realize the setlist had been cut down that much.
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Post by kds on Jul 22, 2021 16:20:06 GMT
I didn't realize the setlist had been cut down that much. I thought maybe it was just because the show I attended was a casino show, but per setlist.fm, most of the other GH sets are 27-28 songs. When I saw him on the NPP and PS50+ shows, he was doing between 33-36 songs.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 22, 2021 16:24:27 GMT
Yeah, that's what I was thinking: California Saga, Feel Flows, Let Him Run Wild, and Salt Lake City haven't exactly been setlist stalwarts through the decades. If the setlists are of similar number of songs, I'd expect at least half a dozen that, aren't obvious greatest hits, and probably one or two that are newly added (at least for the first time in a while, if not ever).
That's almost certainly better than you see in the hits set of a Pet Sounds show. Anyway, point being, more "hits-heavy" than "hits-only."
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Post by kds on Jul 22, 2021 16:31:44 GMT
Yeah, that's what I was thinking: California Saga, Feel Flows, Let Him Run Wild, and Salt Lake City haven't exactly been setlist stalwarts through the decades. If the setlists are of similar number of songs, I'd expect at least half a dozen that, aren't obvious greatest hits, and probably one or two that are newly added (at least for the first time in a while, if not ever).
That's almost certainly better than you see in the hits set of a Pet Sounds show. Anyway, point being, more "hits-heavy" than "hits-only."
The PS shows I attended probably squeezed in roughly the same amount of non PS less obvious tracks. Add Some Music, Wake the World, Cottonfields, Salt Lake City, Funky Pretty, and You're So Good to Me are examples of the deeper tracks, probably about three per show, that were included in the 36 song sets. Just looking at the setlists over the past five years, it looks like the GH shows aren't too dissimilar from the PS shows, just minus the ten PS album tracks.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 22, 2021 17:05:20 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if they did a few Sunflower/Surf's Up songs. They could just keep Blondie's performance of "Feel Flows" in the setlist. It's far from a Greatest Hit, but wouldn't Al want to do "Lookin' At Tomorrow" or, God forbid, "Take A Load Off Your Feet" (I'm not joking). This is a bit of a longshot, but Brian did supposedly record a version of "Long Promised Road" for his new (now old) documentary. He could kill two birds with one stone - promote his documentary and give a plug to the Feel Flows set if he sang that song. There's so many more interesting Feel Flow's things they could do including "Add Some Music To Your Day" with the parts dispersed among the band, maybe a rare "Cool, Cool Water", "Til I Die", and "A Day In The Life Of A Tree".
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Post by kds on Jul 22, 2021 18:04:17 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if they did a few Sunflower/Surf's Up songs. They could just keep Blondie's performance of "Feel Flows" in the setlist. It's far from a Greatest Hit, but wouldn't Al want to do "Lookin' At Tomorrow" or, God forbid, "Take A Load Off Your Feet" (I'm not joking). This is a bit of a longshot, but Brian did supposedly record a version of "Long Promised Road" for the his new (now old) documentary. He could kill two birds with one stone - promote his documentary and give a plug to the Feel Flows set. There's so many more interesting Feel Flow's things they could do including "Add Some Music To Your Day" with the parts dispersed among the band, maybe a rare "Cool, Cool Water", "Til I Die", and "A Day In The Life Of A Tree". Long Promised Road makes total sense since it's a tie in with the doc and the FF set. They played Til I Die on the Something Great From '68 Tour a couple years ago. The times I saw Brian do ASM, Brian took most of the leads, and I think Matt took the "music is in my soul" line. And, this is going to sound like a dig at Brian but it's not meant that way, Brian's current voice would be perfect for Day in the Life of a Tree.
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Post by lonelysummer on Jul 24, 2021 5:34:57 GMT
Here's the setlist from the BW show I attended last January that was billed as a "Greatest Hits" show. 1. California Girls 2. Dance, Dance, Dance 3. I Get Around 4. Shut Down 5. Little Deuce Coupe 6. Little Honda 7. Salt Lake City 8. Surfer Girl 9. Don't Worry Baby 10. California Saga: California 11. Do It Again 12. Let Him Run Wild 13. Darlin' 14. Heroes and Villains 15. Feel Flows 16. Wild Honey 17. Sail On, Sailor 18. I Can Hear Music 19. Wouldn't It Be Nice 20. Sloop John B 21. God Only Knows 22. Good Vibrations 23. Help Me, Rhonda 24. Barbara Ann 25. Surfin' U.S.A. 26. Fun, Fun, Fun 27. Love and Mercy That setlist could just as easily be a Mike Love/Beach Boys show, except for the last song. When I saw the group two years ago, all of the biggies were in the setlist, along with Pisces Brothers, and a few of the covers from Mike's last album - California Sun, Rockaway Beach, and Here Comes the Sun. It's true that McCartney wouldn't be selling out stadiums playing his newer material (even thought his last two albums entered the charts at number one; we know how that goes for veteran acts; a strong first week, then off the charts within a month or two). And it's also true that Macca leans very, very heavily on his identity as a Beatle. From what I've heard about his film with Rick Rubin, the majority of it is about the Beatles. But it seems that in Brian's case, the emphasis on the classic works of the 60's is even more pronounced. When people call Brian a genius, they're not talking about his 1988 solo album; they're not talking about Orange Crate Art, or Gettin' In Over My Head. Some might be thinking of BWPS (Brian Wilson's Pet Sounds, lol), but all that was was a recreation of work that was nearly completed in the 60's. Let's face it, that Brian is gone - the young, vibrant, competitive artist trying to better Phil Spector or the Beatles. I think the only 60's icon that still manages to confound and confront expectations is Bob Dylan. I don't know how he does it. I certainly can't fault Brian for not being the same guy he was in his 20's. By the time I get to Brian's age, I probably will just want to sit in a chair on the front porch all day, drinking 7UP, and talking about the good ol' days.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 24, 2021 11:32:08 GMT
It's true that it could be a current M&B setlist (minus L&M), but that criticism of them as opposed to Brian's band stems from the early days of Brian's touring. Here is a random 1998 Beach Boys setlist that shows the difference a bit more. Surfin' Safari Catch a Wave Hawaii Do It Again Dance, Dance, Dance Do You Wanna Dance? Surfer Girl Don't Worry Baby Little Deuce Coupe 409 Shut Down I Get Around In My Room Then I Kissed Her California Dreamin' Summer in Paradise Sloop John B Wouldn't It Be Nice Good Vibrations Kokomo Help Me, Rhonda Back in the U.S.S.R. Surf City Surfin' U.S.A.
Encore: California Girls Barbara Ann Fun, Fun, Fun
"Do It Again" is the lone post-"Good Vibrations" song represented other than the "new" "Kokomo" and "SIP," and a couple covers ("California Dreamin," "Back in the USSR"). The criticism of their set lists was, in my opinion, valid--or at least it was understandable why Brian's tour was so welcome. In March 1999, his set list included "The Little Girl I Once Knew," "This Whole World," "Kiss Me Baby," "Back Home," "Caroline No," "All Summer Long," both Pet Sounds instrumentals, a cover of Nilsson's "This Will Be the Night," and three Imagination songs.
My only point being, there was once a real distinction to be made. But it has faded over time to some degree. Both do--and always did!--play mostly the prerequisite hits. But Brian's band tended to dig a little deeper and especially to represent 1967-77 more than did the Beach Boys in those days, which I think was a kick in the ass to them. They improved a lot.
Anyone still making the argument/complaint, though, is just repeating boring, no-longer-accurate tropes.
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Post by kds on Jul 24, 2021 12:07:35 GMT
It's true that it could be a current M&B setlist (minus L&M), but that criticism of them as opposed to Brian's band stems from the early days of Brian's touring. Here is a random 1998 Beach Boys setlist that shows the difference a bit more. Surfin' Safari Catch a Wave Hawaii Do It Again Dance, Dance, Dance Do You Wanna Dance? Surfer Girl Don't Worry Baby Little Deuce Coupe 409 Shut Down I Get Around In My Room Then I Kissed Her California Dreamin' Summer in Paradise Sloop John B Wouldn't It Be Nice Good Vibrations Kokomo Help Me, Rhonda Back in the U.S.S.R. Surf City Surfin' U.S.A.
Encore: California Girls Barbara Ann Fun, Fun, Fun
"Do It Again" is the lone post-"Good Vibrations" song represented other than the "new" "Kokomo" and "SIP," and a couple covers ("California Dreamin," "Back in the USSR"). The criticism of their set lists was, in my opinion, valid--or at least it was understandable why Brian's tour was so welcome. In March 1999, his set list included "The Little Girl I Once Knew," "This Whole World," "Kiss Me Baby," "Back Home," "Caroline No," "All Summer Long," both Pet Sounds instrumentals, a cover of Nilsson's "This Will Be the Night," and three Imagination songs.
My only point being, there was once a real distinction to be made. But it has faded over time to some degree. Both do--and always did!--play mostly the prerequisite hits. But Brian's band tended to dig a little deeper and especially to represent 1967-77 more than did the Beach Boys in those days, which I think was a kick in the ass to them. They improved a lot.
Anyone still making the argument/complaint, though, is just repeating boring, no-longer-accurate tropes.
No doubt. Though, I feel that divide ended after C50. But, as much as we diehards might crave deeper tracks, I can't fault Brian or Mike for relying heavily on the material they're best known for.
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Post by kds on Jul 24, 2021 12:09:18 GMT
Here's the setlist from the BW show I attended last January that was billed as a "Greatest Hits" show. 1. California Girls 2. Dance, Dance, Dance 3. I Get Around 4. Shut Down 5. Little Deuce Coupe 6. Little Honda 7. Salt Lake City 8. Surfer Girl 9. Don't Worry Baby 10. California Saga: California 11. Do It Again 12. Let Him Run Wild 13. Darlin' 14. Heroes and Villains 15. Feel Flows 16. Wild Honey 17. Sail On, Sailor 18. I Can Hear Music 19. Wouldn't It Be Nice 20. Sloop John B 21. God Only Knows 22. Good Vibrations 23. Help Me, Rhonda 24. Barbara Ann 25. Surfin' U.S.A. 26. Fun, Fun, Fun 27. Love and Mercy That setlist could just as easily be a Mike Love/Beach Boys show, except for the last song. When I saw the group two years ago, all of the biggies were in the setlist, along with Pisces Brothers, and a few of the covers from Mike's last album - California Sun, Rockaway Beach, and Here Comes the Sun. It's true that McCartney wouldn't be selling out stadiums playing his newer material (even thought his last two albums entered the charts at number one; we know how that goes for veteran acts; a strong first week, then off the charts within a month or two). And it's also true that Macca leans very, very heavily on his identity as a Beatle. From what I've heard about his film with Rick Rubin, the majority of it is about the Beatles. But it seems that in Brian's case, the emphasis on the classic works of the 60's is even more pronounced. When people call Brian a genius, they're not talking about his 1988 solo album; they're not talking about Orange Crate Art, or Gettin' In Over My Head. Some might be thinking of BWPS (Brian Wilson's Pet Sounds, lol), but all that was was a recreation of work that was nearly completed in the 60's. Let's face it, that Brian is gone - the young, vibrant, competitive artist trying to better Phil Spector or the Beatles. I think the only 60's icon that still manages to confound and confront expectations is Bob Dylan. I don't know how he does it. I certainly can't fault Brian for not being the same guy he was in his 20's. By the time I get to Brian's age, I probably will just want to sit in a chair on the front porch all day, drinking 7UP, and talking about the good ol' days. I think David Gilmour still releases very good material, although he's not very prolific.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 24, 2021 12:11:17 GMT
Absolutely. Imagine the Beach Boys band doing a show of exclusively deep cuts. The audience would boo, or walk out. Wilson could get away with it more because his fans would welcome the oddity, the eccentricity. They'd probably try to decipher the decision as if it were a puzzle, to "find the genius" in it. But if the Beach Boys somehow failed to play Good Vibrations, Fun Fun Fun, I Get Around, Surfer Girl, In My Room, Little Deuce Coupe, California Girls, etc., it wouldn't be a creative and interesting idea. It would be idiotic self-sabotage.
It really comes down to a half dozen or so songs per set.
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Post by kds on Jul 24, 2021 13:49:22 GMT
Absolutely. Imagine the Beach Boys band doing a show of exclusively deep cuts. The audience would boo, or walk out. Wilson could get away with it more because his fans would welcome the oddity, the eccentricity. They'd probably try to decipher the decision as if it were a puzzle, to "find the genius" in it. But if the Beach Boys somehow failed to play Good Vibrations, Fun Fun Fun, I Get Around, Surfer Girl, In My Room, Little Deuce Coupe, California Girls, etc., it wouldn't be a creative and interesting idea. It would be idiotic self-sabotage.
It really comes down to a half dozen or so songs per set.
I know at The Beach Boys shows I've attended, be it C50 or Mike and Bruce, many in the audience seemed to greet lesser known tracks with I'd say a polite indifference.
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