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Post by kds on Jun 11, 2021 17:01:46 GMT
I can understand that POV from Sheriff, being a big fan of Brian and Dennis, but that's never bothered me about Holland or LA.
Secret Treaties is my favorite BOC album, but I think it's very odd that Donald Roeser sings no lead vocals on it.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 11, 2021 17:11:06 GMT
Yeah, for me the lack of Brian isn't exactly a determinant, but more an indicator, if that makes sense.
For my taste, he's far and away the best songwriter of the group (and through the early 70s, far and away my favorite singer of the group). So it just stands to reason that if you offered me a Beach Boys album with him or one without him, odds are I'm going to prefer the one with him.
But that's not necessarily going to be true: his absence wouldn't mean it couldn't be good. With Holland more than LA, his relative absence isn't so bad because I do prefer that rootsier sound to LA's polished '70s sound, and I think with more talent in the group at the time, there wasn't a shortage of good material.
(Though a) I have come around on LA more in recent years, but yet b) I don't consider either of these two to be great.)
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Post by kds on Jun 11, 2021 17:13:31 GMT
Yeah, for me the lack of Brian isn't exactly a determinant, but more an indicator, if that makes sense.
For my taste, he's far and away the best songwriter of the group (and through the early 70s, far and away my favorite singer of the group). So it just stands to reason that if you offered me a Beach Boys album with him or one without him, odds are I'm going to prefer the one with him.
But that's not necessarily going to be true: his absence wouldn't mean it couldn't be good. With Holland more than LA, his relative absence isn't so bad because I do prefer that rootsier sound to LA's polished '70s sound, and I think with more talent in the group at the time, there wasn't a shortage of good material.
(Though a) I have come around on LA more in recent years, but yet b) I don't consider either of these two to be great.)
I think this does make sense. To me, it's an indicator that Brian just didn't have that magic touch any longer. And, I think that you can hear that on the BB songs Brian has a credit on pretty much up to TWGMTR, and even then you have to wonder how much of it is really him?
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 11, 2021 17:18:52 GMT
I still tend to prefer his material to the others' material throughout those 30-40 years. But not in every case, and regardless--even though I still tend to prefer his stuff--I agree that he had lost a good bit of his "magic."
Still, give me a latter-day Wilson song over a decades-long overworked Jardine song 8 times out of 10, and I'd take the Jardine song probably 8 times out of 10 over a Love song. Johnston, there's barely anything to even consider. This is all just for reference. (Obviously in those earlier years, you also had two more Wilsons contributing material. And for a while, Chaplin and Fataar.)
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Post by kds on Jun 11, 2021 17:25:33 GMT
I still tend to prefer his material to the others' material throughout those 30-40 years. But not in every case, and regardless--even though I still tend to prefer his stuff--I agree that he had lost a good bit of his "magic."
Still, give me a latter-day Wilson song over a decades-long overworked Jardine song 8 times out of 10, and I'd take the Jardine song probably 8 times out of 10 over a Love song. Johnston, there's barely anything to even consider. This is all just for reference. (Obviously in those earlier years, you also had two more Wilsons contributing material. And for a while, Chaplin and Fataar.)
Post Holland, I'd likely agree. But, the others just weren't contributing the same high quality material they did on the early 70s albums (of course Blondie and Ricky weren't factors anymore). It's likely the wells for Carl, Dennis, Mike, and Al just weren't as deep as Brian's.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 11, 2021 19:36:28 GMT
While I love Dennis Wilson's songwriting, appreciate Al's folksy compositions, welcome the occasional Carl songs, am 50/50 on Bruce's stuff, and tolerate Mike's few originals, there is a direct relationship between my ratings/rankings of Beach Boys' albums - and Brian Wilson's contributions on said albums. That's not to say I don't appreciate all of the albums, including ones where Brian is mostly absent, because I do. I can find something to like on any Beach Boys' album. However, if it's a Beach Boys' album and Brian ain't there, please don't try to sell it as if he is BECAUSE OF a few oohs and ahhs, a few notes, a plunking of a piano on one track, and a song or two that he wrote years' prior and was resurrected (though there is some merit to those, just some).
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 11, 2021 19:50:27 GMT
For me, when everyone else is operating at or near their best, that's when it could still work. So (in my opinion) Holland can still be 7ish (which I think is where you rated it, too), because Al, Mike, Carl, Dennis, Ricky, and Blondie all contributed something worthwhile. (As good as peak Brian? Not even close. But worthwhile.)
But if we start talking about a couple decades later, there just would be no chance for quality without Brian, because there's no Dennis, no Carl, no Blondie, no Ricky. Fewer options, and frankly dealing with a Mike well past his prime and a Bruce mostly MIA as a writer.
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Post by lonelysummer on Jun 12, 2021 4:16:13 GMT
Last Great Single: Hmm, I might go for Somewhere Near Japan, except that I don't think of it as a single (never come across it on a 45...yet...it took me decades to find Still Cruisin'). Nope, I'm ready for the firing squad, it's Kokomo. It's the last BBs single that has all the elements that make for a classic BBs single. And yeah, Brian didn't write it. So? Last good: That's Why God Made the Radio. It doesn't rank anywhere on my list of favorite Beach Boys songs, but it's good. To my ears, it sounds like a Brian Wilson single with the group as guest singers. First bad: Ten Little Indians. Who the bleep chose this to be a single? Thank God for Surfin' USA. The boys were headed for One Hit Wonderdom for moment there. Solo Last Great Single: Morning Beat/Midnight's Another Day. Not sure which is supposed to be the A side, both are good tunes, but Midnight's the classic. Last good: not sure what any of the guys has had out as a single since the one above. First bad: Caroline? No! I'm not familiar with the Celebration stuff, don't know if I've ever heard Almost Summer. It's been a long time since I've heard Looking Back with Love. Was there a single released from POB? I don't think it was River Song, although I have that on a CBS promo 7 inch. I'm gonna go with LBWL, just cause it seems like the kind of mediocrity Mike would write (although he didn't write it!
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Post by B.E. on Jun 12, 2021 5:01:48 GMT
Singles Last Great: "Kokomo". Although, I credit SJS for considering both the A and B sides. As we'll get to in the 'Single of the Week' thread, the Beach Boys continued their penchant for odd pairings for decades to come. After "Kokomo" I'd go with the very strong pairing of "Good Timin'"/"Love Sorrounds Me". "It's OK"/"Had To Phone Ya" is pretty strong too, but I'm not sure if I consider it "great". Last Good: "Isn't It Time". Barely. First Bad: "Cool Cool Water". I'm really glad no one stole my thunder! This is NOT a commercial song. Flip this single around and I might praise it, but "Cool Cool Water" as an A-side is a huge headscratcher. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the song or recording is bad, but it's a bad single. As for the undying "Ten Little Indians" hate , what's the big crime? That they didn't choose "Chug-A-Lug" instead? It was arguably the most commercial song they had available at the time. Also, let's not forget that it was a moderate hit and, based on the success of their subsequent singles, it clearly didn't lose them many/any fans. I appreciate that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I'd take it over much of their post- LY material.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 12, 2021 5:35:00 GMT
Solo Singles
Last Great: "River Song"/"Farewell My Friend". Not released in the US, but so what?
Last Good: Brian's got a bunch of good ones to choose from. The most recent probably being the TLOS promo/single: "Midnight's Another Day"/"That Lucky Old Sun"/"Morning Beat".
First Bad: "Looking Back With Love"/"One Good Reason".
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Post by B.E. on Jun 12, 2021 13:43:21 GMT
Here are the current results. Feel free to chime in if you've yet to do so.
Beach Boys - Albums
Last Great: Love You (2) Holland (2) Surf's Up (2) L.A. (1) Sunflower (1)
Last Good: That's Why God Made The Radio (7) The Beach Boys (1)
First Bad: Smiley Smile (3) M.I.U. (2) Surfin' Safari (1) 15 Big Ones (1) Love You (1) Keepin' The Summer Alive (1)
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Post by B.E. on Jun 12, 2021 13:47:30 GMT
And the solo albums...
Last Great: That Lucky Old Sun (3) Pacific Ocean Blue (2) Orange Crate Art (1)
Last Good: No Pier Pressure (4) Unleash The Love (1) That Lucky Old Sun (1)
First Bad: Going Public (2) Carl Wilson (1) Looking Back With Love (1) Imagination (1) Getting In Over My Head (1)
I'll hold off on tallying the singles.
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Post by Moon Dawg on Jun 12, 2021 15:19:39 GMT
Getting into this one a bit late:
Last great: "Sail On Sailor" Last good: THAT'S WHY GOD MADE THE RADIO First bad: I could say 15 BIG ONES or MIU, but I'll go for KTSA as the first true stinker. Maybe that's a bit generous, but MIU has grown on me (a bit) over the years and 15 BIG ONES, while creaky, was still "The Beach Boys". Perhaps an album somewhat redeemed by commercial success.
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Post by carllove on Jun 12, 2021 20:21:09 GMT
I had to go back and listen to Holland a couple of times and decided it’s a very good album, but not “great” so I have finally made up my mind.
Last Great - Surf’s Up
This album actually had to grow on me. It wasn’t love at first listen like Sunflower, Pet Sounds, 20/20 and Friends. The more I listen to it, the more I appreciate it. It is an album you can listen to the whole way through without skipping tracks (except maybe Student Demonstration Time).
I’m a sucker for Van Dyke Park’s lyrics. Columinated ruins domino has to be one of the best lines of prose in a rock song. The music, lyrics and production of the title song are all brilliant. My two favorite Carl songs are on this as well as the much maligned Disney Girls, which I actually think is a wonderful song. Til I Die is another masterpiece contributing to this albums greatness. To meet my greatness criteria, an album has to make me want to listen to it again after just hearing it, and this is one of those albums.
First Bad - Smiley Smile
Yes, it has Good Vibrations. One song does not an album make - no matter how great the song. Some would also mention Heroes and Villains, but for me the fun in that song is in listening to all of the versions on the Smile box set and for some reason I always feel the need to listen to Do You Like Worms right afterwords, because those songs just go together so well. Well that song is not on Smiley Smile, so Heroes and Villains feels incomplete to me on this album. The Smile versions of Wonderful and Wind Chimes are songs I love and listen to several times a week. The Smiley Smile versions just suck. The Smile version of Vegetables tends to become my ear worm upon listening. The Smiley Smile version is one of those things that makes you go, Hmmm. Not in a good way. Like - What the hell were they thinking. Everything else on this album is just about the worst stuff I have ever heard on an album.
Last Good - TWGMTR
Yes, I will jump on this bandwagon. I was tempted to say Holland, but TWGMTR is actually an enjoyable reminder that The Beach Boys are a national treasure. Nothing great, but a good listen now and then and what will more than likely be a fitting end to the creative output of the group as a whole. Any group that can lose two very integral members, yet still produce an album like this after 50 years, is to be respected and revered. Not as good as Holland, but a heck of a lot better than pretty much every album between those two, in my opinion.
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