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Post by Kapitan on May 28, 2021 17:40:50 GMT
It's another of those classic debate/discussions that I think maybe we somehow avoided here so far: popular and/or critically acclaimed musicians who, for whatever reason, just don't do it for you. The old idea was returned to me when I noticed this video on the Sea of Tranquility channel, where Martin Popoff and Pete Pardo discuss bands that for whatever reason they just never liked.
Let's avoid just naming artists we haven't even really heard or given a chance--it's a little unfair (for our purposes here) to dismiss someone we've barely ever heard. Try to stick to acts you've actually heard a decent amount from: say, you could carry on a conversation as to why you don't like them in some detail. (Not that you need to know the catalogues inside and out because obviously if we don't like something, we're unlikely to do a deep dive.)
Along those lines, I personally am more interested in the details of what you don't like or understand, as opposed to just seeing a list. But that's just me. Otherwise anything goes: critical darlings, underground "geniuses," massive stadium-packing megastars, whatever. And I'll kick things off with a controversial one...
Dennis Wilson I don't hate Dennis Wilson's music, so don't get me wrong. And I don't think he was some sort of talentless hack. But I do think he was best when he was providing bits and pieces, a vocal here and a song there. When left to his own devices, I hear songs without much harmonic and melodic motion, I hear slow tempos, I hear over-dramatic, bloated arrangements, I hear too-long songs.
The idea touted among Beach Boys fans and music critics over the past 15-20 years that he approached (or, as one occasionally hears, surpassed) Brian Wilson's songwriting skills just baffles me. I think he was at his best as a contributor in a band, and that's what he should have remained. A prolonged solo career, to me, would have likely pushed him into irrelevance for me.
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Post by kds on May 28, 2021 18:08:05 GMT
I love those Pete and Martin episodes.
I agree to a certain extent about Dennis, although I think his contributions to the 70s albums are great. But, I also think a little Dennis goes a long way, and find POB a bit of a slog to listen to in its entirely.
There are a few artists I could rattle off here, but in keeping with the spirit of the requirements, I'm limiting myself because some of them I'm thinking of, I really only have a passing knowledge of (Zappa, The Dead, etc), although I think I've heard enough to know I don't like them.
My pick here is.....
Nirvana
Now, as I've gotten older, I sort of get their impact a little more. I get that mainstream rock by 1991 had grown a little stagnant, and the 80s hard rock scene had an expiration date, so had Nirvana not come along and created that shift, somebody else would have, or the movement would've faded away.
That said, I just don't get the "greatness." And I'm not even a grunge hater (anymore). I've grown to really appreciate Alice in Chains and Soundgarden. But, Nirvana? I've heard probably all of Nevermind and Unplugged, as well as all of their "best of" songs, but not one would I consider "great." Yet, almost 30 years after they released an album, they still pop up on Greatest This / Greatest That lists.
I think Kurt Cobain is, at best, an average guitarist. And below average singer. Some of the vocals on Unplugged are absolutely horrendous.
The songwriting is fairly basic, nothing overly special, to my ears.
I could go on about the ripple effect I feel like they had on rock music over the past 30 decades, but I just want to focus on why I don't get / like this, for reasons I cannot fathom, legendary band.
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Post by Kapitan on May 28, 2021 18:13:43 GMT
I agree with you about Nirvana without question. Almost everything you said, in fact, I would say the same thing. (What's more, I found Cobain to be personally annoying. Claiming to be--and want to be--an outsider while making videos, signing a major label deal, doing press, doing photo shoots, etc., makes one hard to take seriously.)
Where I might have sold him short is on his songwriting ability to some degree. In watching some Rick Beato videos, he pointed out some things I hadn't noticed, just little things, that I had to admit I hadn't noticed and were somewhat cool. And there's no denying that some of those songs were catchy, if nothing else.
But really the aesthetic was something I didn't like, that combined slacker/grunge-punk/cynical/outsider persona. I didn't believe it and, even if I did, I don't like it.
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Post by kds on May 28, 2021 18:20:43 GMT
I agree with you about Nirvana without question. Almost everything you said, in fact, I would say the same thing. (What's more, I found Cobain to be personally annoying. Claiming to be--and want to be--an outsider while making videos, signing a major label deal, doing press, doing photo shoots, etc., makes one hard to take seriously.)
Where I might have sold him short is on his songwriting ability to some degree. In watching some Rick Beato videos, he pointed out some things I hadn't noticed, just little things, that I had to admit I hadn't noticed and were somewhat cool. And there's no denying that some of those songs were catchy, if nothing else.
But really the aesthetic was something I didn't like, that combined slacker/grunge-punk/cynical/outsider persona. I didn't believe it and, even if I did, I don't like it.
I agree the whole "anti rock star" thing was tiring. And it was even more tiring once the alternative became mainstream. Not just Cobain, but just about everyone from the 1990s alternative "we do serious music, you can tell by our dour faces" movement. I'm not sure who was putting up a front and who was being authentic, and frankly, I don't give a damn.
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Post by Kapitan on May 28, 2021 18:37:32 GMT
I'm not sure who was putting up a front and who was being authentic, and frankly, I don't give a damn. This is where that tiresome "authenticity" topic comes into play. I just don't think all "inauthenticities" are created equal. If you're a regular schmuck but you've glammed up and are singing about an idealized dream-life, that to me is wildly different from being (for example) an upper-class, spoiled, trust-fund kid singing about how much you hate capitalism.
If you hate fame, there is a pretty easy way to get out of it. (And it doesn't require the eventual one he chose.) Just don't sign the contract. Don't go on the world tours. Don't agree to interviews with global outlets.
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Post by kds on May 28, 2021 18:46:35 GMT
I'm not sure who was putting up a front and who was being authentic, and frankly, I don't give a damn. This is where that tiresome "authenticity" topic comes into play. I just don't think all "inauthenticities" are created equal. If you're a regular schmuck but you've glammed up and are singing about an idealized dream-life, that to me is wildly different from being (for example) an upper-class, spoiled, trust-fund kid singing about how much you hate capitalism.
If you hate fame, there is a pretty easy way to get out of it. (And it doesn't require the eventual one he chose.) Just don't sign the contract. Don't go on the world tours. Don't agree to interviews with global outlets.
Couldn't agree more.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 28, 2021 21:20:47 GMT
Dennis WilsonI don't hate Dennis Wilson's music, so don't get me wrong. And I don't think he was some sort of talentless hack. But I do think he was best when he was providing bits and pieces, a vocal here and a song there. When left to his own devices, I hear songs without much harmonic and melodic motion, I hear slow tempos, I hear over-dramatic, bloated arrangements, I hear too-long songs.
The idea touted among Beach Boys fans and music critics over the past 15-20 years that he approached (or, as one occasionally hears, surpassed) Brian Wilson's songwriting skills just baffles me. I think he was at his best as a contributor in a band, and that's what he should have remained. A prolonged solo career, to me, would have likely pushed him into irrelevance for me.
In late 1976/early 1977 anyway, I do not think Brian Wilson could've arranged or produced - or sung - an album like Dennis did with Pacific Ocean Blue. I don't know quite how to describe or explain it. I don't want to say Pacific Ocean Blue was "over Brian's head" or beyond his scope, but, yeah, I kinda do mean that, at least at that time. Pacific Ocean Blue was different than anything Brian had ever recorded. I'm not saying it's better. It isn't; a lot of Brian's 60's material was better. However, post-1970 it is better. The combinations of instruments, sounds, and emotions that Dennis was able to utilize and bring out was special - IMO of course.
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Post by Kapitan on May 29, 2021 14:59:40 GMT
Neil Young
I'm not overly familiar with Young's music, but I've heard several of the albums considered to be among his best--Harvest and After the Gold Rush among them--as well as CSN&Y and an assortment of songs here and there from across the decades. Realizing he's known as a great songwriter, a central figure in the country- and folk-rock scene as well as a pioneer of guitar-driven and noisy, almost grunge rock, I ought to like him.
But I don't. Rarely do his songs stand out for me, and I hate his voice with all the passion that some people seem to feel for Dylan's.
It's possible I'll come around some day. After all, I used to dislike or dismiss the Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, and plenty of other artists I like now. But I've tried on and off across the past 20 years. A song here, an album there. Nothing ever sticks: I just don't like it.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 29, 2021 15:22:58 GMT
Any Grateful Dead fans out there? Through the years, I've heard a lot of their stuff and I've watched several live videos on YouTube, and I was bored. I guess I never appreciated their...talent..both vocally and instrumentally. I saw Bob Weir open for Bob Dylan and almost fell asleep.
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Post by Kapitan on May 29, 2021 23:32:10 GMT
Any Grateful Dead fans out there? Through the years, I've heard a lot of their stuff and I've watched several live videos on YouTube, and I was bored. I guess I never appreciated their...talent..both vocally and instrumentally. I saw Bob Weir open for Bob Dylan and almost fell asleep. I'm on thin ice criticizing the Dead because of how little I've heard. But the little I've heard has not inspired me to listen to more, I can say that much. What I've heard has seemed, well, fine. Perfectly fine, rootsy, jam-bandish stuff. Well, that and the apparently atypical hit, "Touch of Grey," which I also found fine but not great. (Catchy, anyway.)
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Post by B.E. on May 29, 2021 23:41:13 GMT
I'm in the same boat as Kapitan (regarding the Dead, not Dennis, Kurt, or Neil ). Really, though, I'm just not a fan of jam bands, and many other genres. I stick to the few I like. I don't listen to anything else.
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Post by Kapitan on May 30, 2021 0:03:58 GMT
Really, though, I'm just not a fan of jam bands, and many other genres. I stick to the few I like. I don't listen to anything else. I listen to something from a lot of genres, but jam bands in general just strike me as the poor man's jazz, or the very high man's blues. Long improvised solos are tough to pull off, which is why I love the best jazz but don't bother with much else. Blues and blues-rock musicians usually tend to recognize the (and their) limitations--especially when the music they're improvising over tends to be so much simpler, having far less freedom--and keep their solos shorter.
Jam bands usually have the structure of that more basic music, but their solos go on indefinitely, infinitely (it seems). There just aren't many musicians interesting enough to hold a person's (or my, anyway) attention for so long. Maybe it's more palatable with the right drugs, I don't know. But in my experience, it's almost always just boring.
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Post by kds on May 30, 2021 0:50:45 GMT
The only Dead song I've ever really liked is Touch of Grey, which sounds pretty much nothing like any of the "classic" Dead songs I know. I'm in the same boat with jam bands. I find them impressively uninteresting.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 5:55:02 GMT
So far I agree with most of what has been posted here. I believe Dennis' music is overrated to some extent and some of his output just plain bores me. Curt Cobain was a very disturbed individual who was at the right place at the right time and then checked out. I like about 2 Nirvana songs. Neil Young is goofy sounding, but his stint with CSNY was fairly worthwhile, in my book. And his stuff with Buffalo Springfield was mostly good.
So here's my act I honestly never got: Steely Dan. I know, at least one person is thinking HEYYYY!!! I've heard a lot of SD over the years, mostly on the radio. My sister had one of their albums. Nope, doesn't do anything for me.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 30, 2021 13:19:27 GMT
Regarding:
Neil Young - I can compile a great 80-minute CD of his stuff which IS saying something, for me anyway.
Frank Zappa - I know one Zappa song - "Valley Girl". For some reason I never made an attempt to get into him.
Nirvana - I have their Greatest Hits CD and really like it. I'm going out on a limb here but, I think "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is one of the greatest songs of the rock era, and I think Kurt Cobain deserves the accolades he frequently receives.
Steely Dan - When "Reeling In The Years" and "Do It Again" came out on AM radio, I loved those songs, then it was diminishing returns after that. I bought A Decade Of Steely Dan (Best of) and listened to it maybe once.
I probably have no right in listing this one because I do not own one of his solo albums, but George Harrison's solo career did not...grab me. Similar to Steely Dan, when George came out firing with "What Is Life", "My Sweet Lord", and a couple others, I was interested. After that, it was basically...meh.
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