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Post by Kapitan on May 24, 2021 11:38:58 GMT
Usually I give a bit of background by way of context for each new single. "Heroes and Villains," though, would warrant a book--the book about group dynamics; about Brian Wilson's flirtation with the hipsters of LA even as the Beach Boys toured the world and, in some cases, questioned Brian and his whole scene; about Smile and Smiley Smile; about mental illness and drug use; about high, eventually crippling expectations; about failure.
Happy days. So just the fact, ma'am.
By July 1967, it had been nine months since the Beach Boys had released a single, their #1 hit "Good Vibrations." Wilson had discussed both "Vega-tables" and "Heroes & Villains" as possible lead singles since as early as February 1967, making the delay that much more frustrating. "H&V" went through myriad permutations before finally being almost entirely rerecorded starting in June and completed near the end of that month.
In late July, the song was released and reached #12 on the Billboard charts by September, but dropped off the charts entirely just a week later. (It was released in August in the UK and reached #8.)
Please rate and discuss "Heroes & Villains" (and "You're Welcome").
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Post by carllove on May 24, 2021 12:25:34 GMT
This song sort of has it all - Van Dyke Parks, harpsichord, American History, “You’re Under Arrest”, Mike singing mockingly, and endless versions. It’s in my top 20 post Pet Sounds favorite songs and it never gets boring. I do always wish they had a final version using the Bicycle Rider part from Do You Like Worms as originally planned. The two go together so well.
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Post by kds on May 24, 2021 12:25:39 GMT
H&V is definitely a song it took me a while to come around on. I remember in my early 20s, visiting my folks, and my father was watching Vh1 Classic. They showed a Brian Wilson performance of H&V, and Dad said it was one of his favorite BB songs. In my head, I thought "This bullshit?" But, it really grew on me, and now I love it.
I'm going with a ten, mostly for the A side again, although You're Welcome is a charming little thing. This is my favorite version of H&V, the short concise single cut. I've actually never been a huge fan of the Cantina section.
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Post by carllove on May 24, 2021 12:41:22 GMT
H&V is definitely a song it took me a while to come around on. I remember in my early 20s, visiting my folks, and my father was watching Vh1 Classic. They showed a Brian Wilson performance of H&V, and Dad said it was one of his favorite BB songs. In my head, I thought "This bullshit?" But, it really grew on me, and now I love it. I'm going with a ten, mostly for the A side again, although You're Welcome is a charming little thing. This is my favorite version of H&V, the short concise single cut. I've actually never been a huge fan of the Cantina section. I do have to say - the first time I heard it - I was like “What the heck is going on here?” Yeah - I do think it takes several listens to appreciate it. The different versions make it fun. I could only do a 9 though. There are better Beach Boys songs.
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Post by kds on May 24, 2021 12:57:31 GMT
H&V is definitely a song it took me a while to come around on. I remember in my early 20s, visiting my folks, and my father was watching Vh1 Classic. They showed a Brian Wilson performance of H&V, and Dad said it was one of his favorite BB songs. In my head, I thought "This bullshit?" But, it really grew on me, and now I love it. I'm going with a ten, mostly for the A side again, although You're Welcome is a charming little thing. This is my favorite version of H&V, the short concise single cut. I've actually never been a huge fan of the Cantina section. I do have to say - the first time I heard it - I was like “What the heck is going on here?” Yeah - I do think it takes several listens to appreciate it. The different versions make it fun. I could only do a 9 though. There are better Beach Boys songs. True, there are better BB songs, but they're getting near the tail end of a golden age for their single with this one.
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Post by Kapitan on May 24, 2021 13:10:35 GMT
I'm not quite the exact opposite of KDS on this one ... but close.
This was my favorite Beach Boys song--or one of my top couple--for several years. But I almost feel like 1967 Brian at this point, having heard version after version and no longer being sure what it is I'm hearing or wanting to hear.
But I know for sure this version isn't my favorite, and definitely isn't a 10. The "cantina" section is my favorite part of the whole song, with the possible exception of the first verse. You can't omit the best part and get a perfect score.
"You're Welcome" is really cool, but not as a song: it's great as a little tag, a hidden track, a snippet. I don't like the choice for it as a B-side to such a would-be monumental A-side.
I'll have to think about my rating for a while. Probably 8ish.
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Post by kds on May 24, 2021 13:13:15 GMT
Maybe it's because I don't enjoy margaritas nearly as much as I did when I was in my 20s (even though the Cantina section references a person, not a cocktail).
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Post by Kapitan on May 24, 2021 13:23:26 GMT
(even though the Cantina section references a person, not a cocktail). The beauty of it is, it's both--or can be heard as both. Van Dyke's lyrics can be insufferable at times, but sometimes they're really good. I think this song is the latter: really good.
I could go for a nice margarita right now...or a Marguerita, for that matter.
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Post by kds on May 24, 2021 13:30:37 GMT
(even though the Cantina section references a person, not a cocktail). The beauty of it is, it's both--or can be heard as both. Van Dyke's lyrics can be insufferable at times, but sometimes they're really good. I think this song is the latter: really good.
I could go for a nice margarita right now...or a Marguerita, for that matter.
I guess it could be both, especially the first line of that section. I agree, H&V does feature some of Van Dyke's better lyrics.
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Post by Kapitan on May 24, 2021 13:38:47 GMT
I really like that it's on the edge between being obvious, clear narrative and suggestive imagery.
Whereas, for example, "Surf's Up" is almost entirely the latter (and people trying to find "the story" have, in my opinion, been wasting their time for decades. Those taking seriously Brian's old "explanation" even more so.) With "Heroes & Villains," there's a little more concrete stuff to hang your hat on ... and yet it isn't quite just "I did this and she said that and they did this, the end."
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Post by jk on May 24, 2021 14:37:35 GMT
My brother and I bought precisely two BB 45s at the time. Mine was "Barbara Ann", his was "H&V". But in the latter case it was the wonderfully evocative B-side that made the most impression on us. This probably sounds pretentious but I think SMiLE had to come along before "H&V" made any real sense. I'll give the 45 ten but mainly on account of the extraordinary "You're Welcome".
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Post by Kapitan on May 24, 2021 15:04:58 GMT
My brother and I bought precisely two BB 45s at the time. Mine was "Barbara Ann", his was "H&V". But in the latter case it was the wonderfully evocative B-side that made the most impression on us. This probably sounds pretentious but I think SMiLE had to come along before "H&V" made any real sense. I'll give the 45 ten but mainly on account of the extraordinary "You're Welcome". Interesting take that I definitely didn't see coming!
Your thought about H&V needing Smile makes sense, too. Or at least I think the experience is more in context when there's a whole album around it. I think it can be enjoyed alone, but it's better as a part of the whole.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 24, 2021 15:14:16 GMT
I recognize "Heroes And Villains"'s greatness. The melody, the production, and, I guess, Van Dyke Parks' lyrics. There's a lot going on there, in any version. Some might say too much. In many ways it is the cornerstone of SMiLE. I especially like the "Bicycle Rider, see see what you've done..." riff. I really like just the piano or harpsichord playing it. It is very haunting, especially in "Do You Like Worms". So, yes, it is great and I like it...just not a lot. It's not on any of my favorite BB songs lists. It doesn't make my Greatest Hits comps, at least not Vol. 1. I'm not so sure it's a great "single" either. I don't remember it in 1967, but when I hear it occasionally pop up on an oldies station, it sounds out of place. Even though it was released near the peak of the psychedelic era, it doesn't sound quite at home there either. It sounds best right where it was meant to be - on SMiLE - and truly, SMiLE is on a planet of its own. I think "Heroes And Villains" was/is very important to Brian Wilson.
Now, "You're Welcome", I love. Brian could create art out of anything at that time. It sounds so cool. I'm probably wrong (and we'll never know the entire truth), but I think/thought/maybe still think that "You're Welcome" was written and considered for SMiLE in 1967. And, I still think it is the best opening track for SMiLE, and I've used it that way in my personal SMiLE mixes for years. Initially, I was disappointed when "You're Welcome" was not included on Brian Wilson Presents Smile, but when I realized what a fraud that...album...was, I was happy that it didn't make the cut. Now, "You're Welcome" takes it rightful place on the SMiLE Sessions boxed set, alongside all of the other magical music.
I don't think "Heroes And Villains"/"You're Welcome" is a great single. Maybe very good. Maybe just good. It was disappointing and the beginning of the end of era. An 8.
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Post by Kapitan on May 24, 2021 15:19:36 GMT
My pre-BWPS Smiles closed with "You're Welcome." Always.
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Post by kds on May 24, 2021 15:26:01 GMT
Brian could always revisit You're Welcome if he ever does SITKOD Vol 2
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