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Post by Kapitan on Oct 16, 2020 14:39:58 GMT
...I don't know. That was just a catchy title to introduce the thread! The point, though, is that I'm guessing there are artists widely agreed upon as great songwriters, singers, guitarists, drummers, bassists, keyboardists, etc., who, for whatever reason, you just don't get it.
To be clear, I don't mean like "yes, I acknowledge so-and-so is a great guitarist, but I just don't care for his playing," or "he may be a great songwriter, but I hate his singing." I mean someone who is known as a great guitarist but his guitar playing doesn't sound great to you; she's known as a great songwriter, but you don't understand what's great about her songs.
I'll kick it off with a controversial one: Neil Young is considered a great songwriter and by some a great guitarist. While I admit my exposure is limited--I've listened to a couple albums' worth in total, but not much (in that I hated it all)--I have never heard anything in his songs or his guitar playing that struck me as particularly good, and certainly not in "great" territory.
Anyone else have any admissions to make along these lines?
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Post by kds on Oct 16, 2020 15:04:41 GMT
Flea - Flea is widely considered one of the great bassists who ever lived. Personally, I'm not a fan of slap bass. I feel the same way about metal drummers who overly rely on double kick pedals.
Kerry King - Now, I'm not a Slayer fan, but I can usually at least appreciate musicianship of bands I'm not into. But, King has made a name for himself for playing the same solo over and over again, either on Slayer songs, or guesting with The Beastie Boys.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 16, 2020 15:23:03 GMT
I feel a little unqualified to be mentioning him/them because I'm far from a big fan and even farther from being an authority on their music, but I never "got" the greatness of Robbie Robertson as a guitarist and The Band's music. I really enjoy The Last Waltz and always stop and watch it when it pops up on cable TV. However, a few times I've explored The Band's catalogue and only come away with a couple songs that I consider great, and you all know which ones they are. I guess I appreciate their homey, down-home rootsy approach - as did some very prominent musicians through the years - but the actual music? Meh.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 16, 2020 15:31:03 GMT
I almost used Robbie Robertson as a guitarist as an example! I recall saying so years ago when discussing his work on Planet Waves, and Ian W. thought I was nuts. I enjoy Robertson's playing, and I love the Band's music. I think they were quite good in terms of being working musicians--especially Levon Helm and Garth Hudson. But I don't hear anything special in Robertson's guitar playing. It fits the music, and it's great music. But it isn't impressive guitar playing to me.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 16, 2020 15:39:22 GMT
I almost used Robbie Robertson as a guitarist as an example! I recall saying so years ago when discussing his work on Planet Waves, and Ian W. thought I was nuts. I enjoy Robertson's playing, and I love the Band's music. I think they were quite good in terms of being working musicians--especially Levon Helm and Garth Hudson. But I don't hear anything special in Robertson's guitar playing. It fits the music, and it's great music. But it isn't impressive guitar playing to me. I remember those debates with Ian, and it was actually those posts that got me to check out The Band. I was too chicken to respond that I wasn't getting the greatness, but I did appreciate the...lesson.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 6, 2020 18:08:03 GMT
I love Ace Frehley. But Ace Frehley is not a very good guitar player (compared to professional guitar players). He is influential, but really only because he had massive exposure to tweens and teens. He inspired them to start playing guitar because he looked cool in spaceman makeup with smoke shooting out of his guitar.
His repertoire consists almost exclusively of power chords (root-and-fifth voicings), simple riffs, and pentatonic minor scales.
Some of his songs are really cool, really catchy ... but that's songwriting, not guitar playing. Here is "Rip It Out," really prototypical Ace. I love it, just like I did when I was 14 and playing it note-for-note.
Sorry, but that's what Ace was: an inspiration for kids to start playing guitar, and a guy who played simple enough parts that they could learn to play along. Kind of a '70s version of C.C. DeVille of Poison. (Actually C.C. was better than Ace.)
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 7, 2020 0:19:05 GMT
Were any of the original KISS members good (or great) musicians?
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 7, 2020 0:25:17 GMT
Were any of the original KISS members good (or great) musicians? Oh absolutely not. But the others don't tend to be considered great. Ace somehow seems to be mentioned as a great guitarist from time to time (usually with semi-disclaimers about "feel" and such).
I think there have been two truly great KISS musicians: Vinnie Vincent and Mark St. John. And to be fair, neither of those is especially interesting to most people!
Eric Carr was a very good drummer, too. I'd say Eric Singer is a damn good drummer, and versatile, too. Bruce Kulick is a really good player. But those aren't people anyone considers virtuosos.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 7, 2020 0:49:18 GMT
Going slightly off-topic, but there's a lesson in there somewhere. You don't have to be a virtuoso to make great - or some of the greatest - music. A quick thought about some groups who had members (plural) that were not the most skilled instrumentalists, but created some of the greatest rock and roll of all time. That list might include:
- The Beach Boys - The Beatles - The Rolling Stones - Bob Dylan - KISS - The Ramones - The Grateful Dead (though I'm not a fan) - The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed - Willie Nelson/Johnny Cash/Kris Kristofferson/Waylon Jennings - Chuck Berry?
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 7, 2020 1:22:47 GMT
Absolutely no question at all. Technical proficiency and songwriting, and even performance quality, aren't the same thing.
The thread itself originally was meant specifically to address people who are considered great at that one skill, but we don't hear it. And while I think you get that (because you called this OT), I do want to just make sure the distinction is made. DEFINITELY didn't intend that a person must be a technical wizard to be good, or even great.
More to your point, SJS, absolutely. I always have in mind the idea of series of qualities that can each be rated 1-10, and a total number of points to allocate between them. Above a certain point of total points, you're great. But the exact combination of traits to add up to that number are different. (Let's say material, technical skill, individual personality, energy, depth ... whatever) The 40 required to be great could be 8-8-8-8-8, or 10-10-10-7-3, or 9-3-10-8-10, etc.
Technical virtuosity is absolutely not required. (I do think technical competence is, barring extreme situations (e.g. punk)). You just need other things to compensate. So Ace/KISS, they had solid material, great marketing, amazing charisma, etc.
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Post by B.E. on Dec 2, 2020 20:53:13 GMT
Going slightly off-topic, but there's a lesson in there somewhere. You don't have to be a virtuoso to make great - or some of the greatest - music. A quick thought about some groups who had members (plural) that were not the most skilled instrumentalists, but created some of the greatest rock and roll of all time. That list might include:
- Chuck Berry?
I came here to (hesitantly, and anonymously) drop the 'Chuck Berry' bomb, but I see SJS has already hinted in that direction. I really ought to do my due diligence and listen closely to Berry's music for an extended period before posting here, but I'm not going to. More than a few times I've listened to the original version of a Chuck Berry tune that I was introduced to by someone else, and found his style a bit too laidback and sloppy for my taste. That's partly arrangement, and perhaps technical limitation, but I'm really talking specifically about his guitar playing. He's a pioneer. An innovator. I suppose that makes him great and disqualifies him from this thread. But, as much as I dig some of his riffs, I'm not sure I hear "greatness" in his performance. Especially in his live performances where he's just as focused on showmanship. (I'm more impressed with his songwriting.)
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 2, 2020 20:57:32 GMT
Totally fair and in the spirit of the thread.
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Post by kds on Dec 4, 2020 13:48:23 GMT
The Beatles have already been brought up, but I'm going to single out one of their members.
George Harrison. George might be my favorite solo Beatle, but since his death, he seems to have risen in lists of greatest guitarists. He's a good guitar player of course. But, he doesn't even play lead on some of his signature songs, often getting a helping slow hand from his buddy Eric. Good guitarist, very good songwriter. But, I wouldn't call George a guitar great.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 4, 2020 13:59:32 GMT
I think of George as a very good guitar player, versatile and absolutely technically proficient. He did a lot of cool things. Great? Not in the world of great guitarists.
To use an analogy, he's great in the way a journeyman veteran NFL quarterback is great. He knows the playbook inside and out, he knows everyone else's playbook inside and out, he can make all the throws ... but he isn't throwing the ball 75 yards in the air, he isn't running to the corner and turning upfield for a 50-yard scamper, he isn't rifling a bullet through a window the size of a cereal box to a barely-open receiver. He's great in that he's better by far than anyone YOU know, but he's not in that elite echelon of freaks.
That's how I think of George Harrison. Fabulous musician, really good guitar player. But if we're talking about Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen? He's not in that territory.
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Post by B.E. on Dec 4, 2020 16:52:50 GMT
I'm glad you mentioned George Harrison. I couldn't help but think of him when I was considering Chuck Berry. I pretty much agree with you guys, but I do think George became a great slide guitar player. I don't think it's just my Beatle fandom - I can hear the greatness. And, I recognize his playing, his style, from a mile away.
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