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Post by Kapitan on May 15, 2020 15:57:08 GMT
Now that's quite a project there. And I feel obligated to make my dream version of the album ... mostly because I can't let SJS have the final say on the matter under any circumstances!
Maybe this afternoon.
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Post by kds on May 15, 2020 16:02:05 GMT
I haven't put that much thought in it, but I will disagree in SJS's final three tracks.
Much like TWGMTR, I would want a new Beach Boys album to be focused on the present. No ghosted in vocals from Carl or Dennis. Leave that for live versions of songs they sang.
Also, why end a illustrious 60 year career with two covers?
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 15, 2020 16:25:06 GMT
I haven't put that much thought in it, but I will disagree in SJS's final three tracks. Much like TWGMTR, I would want a new Beach Boys album to be focused on the present. No ghosted in vocals from Carl or Dennis. Leave that for live versions of songs they sang. Also, why end a illustrious 60 year career with two covers? I could understand why TWGMTR focused on the present. It was ten years ago, the guys were ten years younger, they were all more actively writing/recording, and there was actually a chance of a FUTURE for the group as The Beach Boys. Now, ten years later, obviously things have changed. Life happened. Age happened. There probably is no future for The Beach Boys after the 60th Anniversary. They won't be building on anything. Like I posted above, with a farewell album, it would be (more) appropriate to remember/feature Carl and Dennis. This album would be more sentimental, more nostalgic. I hate to say it but it would be kind of a good-bye, and Carl and Dennis didn't really get the chance to do that. I wouldn't be as concerned about sales and chart positions this time around. I mean, that would be nice, but I'm looking for more of a "feeling" this time around. Just my opinion...
Why end with covers? Why not? That's how they started! Seriously, it is something they did well and never stopped doing, even as solo artists. But, like I said above, the choice and execution of the song(s) is essential. I'll suggest a few good ones at the next meeting.
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Post by kds on May 15, 2020 16:31:19 GMT
I haven't put that much thought in it, but I will disagree in SJS's final three tracks. Much like TWGMTR, I would want a new Beach Boys album to be focused on the present. No ghosted in vocals from Carl or Dennis. Leave that for live versions of songs they sang. Also, why end a illustrious 60 year career with two covers? I could understand why TWGMTR focused on the present. It was ten years ago, the guys were ten years younger, they were all more actively writing/recording, and there was actually a chance of a FUTURE for the group as The Beach Boys. Now, ten years later, obviously things have changed. Life happened. Age happened. There probably is no future for The Beach Boys after the 60th Anniversary. They won't be building on anything. Like I posted above, with a farewell album, it would be (more) appropriate to remember/feature Carl and Dennis. This album would be more sentimental, more nostalgic. I hate to say it but it would be kind of a good-bye, and Carl and Dennis didn't really get the chance to do that. I wouldn't be as concerned about sales and chart positions this time around. I mean, that would be nice, but I'm looking for more of a "feeling" this time around. Just my opinion...
Why end with covers? Why not? That's how they started! Seriously, it is something they did well and never stopped doing, even as solo artists. But, like I said above, the choice and execution of the song(s) is essential. I'll suggest a few good ones at the next meeting. I'll have to respectfully disagree. If we get a new Beach Boys album in 2022, I'd much prefer a 2022 Beach Boys album. Farewell album or no (and while there might have been a future in 2012, the last three tracks on TWGMTR tell me that they had farewell in the back of their minds for that one too). So, I'd want Brian, Mike, Bruce, Al, David, and maybe Blondie to do the best album they can do in 2022. And, on covers, The Beach Boys did some great ones in the 1960s. Not so much later. If they did insist on some covers, at least put them in the middle of the album somewhere. After the highs of the closing trio on TWGMTR, I'd hate to think of a final BB album ending with a version of someone else's song.
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Post by B.E. on May 15, 2020 16:43:30 GMT
I agree with SJS that this would be a farewell album ("Sunset" is nice title), so I do think it would be appropriate to incorporate Dennis and Carl in some way. I like the idea of recording a Dennis song (I'd suggest a Carl song as well), BUT the backing track(s) would have to be re-recorded. In order for this proposed album to gel with so many different songwriters, it needs to be sonically cohesive. Now, that doesn't preclude flying-in a vocal, but I'd be very mindful of blending it the best I could or only using a few lines. Think of how Dennis is featured in "Baby Blue". He only sings that one section. It's a highlight of sorts. I'd probably pick a Bambu song and fly-in a prominent few lines, but I'd let the current Beach Boys not only harmonize, but potentially sing other sections of the song.
I'll disagree in regard to sequencing (if that is a proposed sequence, I'm not sure). Obviously, we have no idea how any of these songs would sound, but I'd definitely try to integrate the songs of each member and not have blocks.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 15, 2020 17:11:54 GMT
I'll disagree in regard to sequencing (if that is a proposed sequence, I'm not sure). Obviously, we have no idea how any of these songs would sound, but I'd definitely try to integrate the songs of each member and not have blocks. Thank you for mentioning this, and maybe that was a point of contention with kds, too, but, no, my model was not sequenced...yet.
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Post by kds on May 15, 2020 17:26:04 GMT
While I would still be against covers or flown in ghost vocals, I do have a suggestion that could possibly check both boxes.
Take Carl's vocals from the Summer in Paradise version of Under the Boardwalk, and have Mike, Al, Brian, or Bruce sing the verses properly. One of the all time great summer anthems got absolutely murdered in 1992 by one of the great bands associated with summertime, and that's just a shame.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the way SIP was recorded would even allow them to pull an isolated Carl vocal.
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Post by B.E. on May 15, 2020 17:33:06 GMT
KDS, I'd certainly be open to those kind of ideas. And, as I stated, it's only due to the circumstances. It would be a miracle for them to complete a new studio album at this point and it would very obviously be a "let's get together one last time" situation. Just have fun with it. They needn't take it so seriously. But, have respect for the group and its fans. As long as the quality control is there, I'm in. I really think they'd be hurtin' for new material anyway, so they'd probably need to get creative to fill out the album.
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Post by Kapitan on May 15, 2020 17:33:44 GMT
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the way SIP was recorded would even allow them to pull an isolated Carl vocal. It was done digitally, one of the first in Pro Tools. As long as they weren't singing into the same mic (or different mics near each other so that the sound would bleed), they absolutely could isolate the vocal. In fact, that was one of the biggest selling points of digital recording: you could do everything separate, never run out of tracks, and fiddle with each individual track forever.
And I would assume they were indeed recording guys separately.
The bigger question might be getting that information off of 30-year-old hardware and software. I've listened to Steve Albini (famed engineer/producer, especially known for his 90s work with alternative artists like Nirvana, but also worked with Page/Plant) talk about that's why he uses tape even now: the information printed to tape is printed to tape. Period. You could theoretically always make a new tape player to read it. Computers have undergone countless versions since the early 90s, and software has gone through even more.
So even if they saved all the raw file information (as opposed to just the finished masters) it might be a project to actually get it and put it into modern, usable formats.
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Post by kds on May 15, 2020 17:49:17 GMT
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the way SIP was recorded would even allow them to pull an isolated Carl vocal. It was done digitally, one of the first in Pro Tools. As long as they weren't singing into the same mic (or different mics near each other so that the sound would bleed), they absolutely could isolate the vocal. In fact, that was one of the biggest selling points of digital recording: you could do everything separate, never run out of tracks, and fiddle with each individual track forever.
And I would assume they were indeed recording guys separately.
The bigger question might be getting that information off of 30-year-old hardware and software. I've listened to Steve Albini (famed engineer/producer, especially known for his 90s work with alternative artists like Nirvana, but also worked with Page/Plant) talk about that's why he uses tape even now: the information printed to tape is printed to tape. Period. You could theoretically always make a new tape player to read it. Computers have undergone countless versions since the early 90s, and software has gone through even more.
So even if they saved all the raw file information (as opposed to just the finished masters) it might be a project to actually get it and put it into modern, usable formats.
I remember reading one on the boards that, either since it was an early version of ProTools, or because of the way the album was recorded, that SIP would be nearly impossible to remix. Whether or not than means isolated vocals could be pulled, I'm not sure. But, since this is just hypothetical anyway, let's just say they can do it. I think it would be great to finally get a good version of that song by The Beach Boys. I'm mildly surprised Mike didn't include it on his 12 Sides of Summer album last year (although he might have insisted on the SIP lyrics).
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Post by Kapitan on May 15, 2020 20:08:04 GMT
The Beach Boys, Eventide Produced by The Beach Boys with Scott Totten and Darian Sahanaja
Brian Wilson - Vocals, Piano, Organ, Harpsichord Mike Love - Vocals Al Jardine - Vocals, Guitar, Banjo Bruce Johnston - Vocals, Piano David Marks - Guitar
Feat. Blondie Chaplin - Guitar, Vocals Feat. Ricky Fataar - Pedal Steel, Vocals
With Matt Jardine, Brian Eichenberger, Probyn Gregory, John Cowsill, Scott Totten, Darian Sahanaja, and Paul Mertens.
The album is intended as relatively straightforward—no, not live. Not unplugged. Just not a kitchen-sink kind of affair—and mature, but not overly serious. I don’t want the creepy Mike Love pretending to be cruisin’ for chicks (or self-referencing, goddamnit), but I don’t want a massive downer either. Let’s have FUN, but acknowledge we’re a bunch of 70-something men. The emphasis is on melody and harmony, with an eye toward ensuring we’re writing material that the group can perform without excess studio magic. The non-Beach Boys musicians are there to provide a solid instrumental bedrock and contribute as necessary to ensure high quality vocals.
1. [Short a cappella intro] (Wilson or Wilson/Love) Whether it’s a wordless piece or something more like “Meant For You,” I think it’s a winning formula for an opener.
2. [Rock and Roll Song] (Wilson/Love) The best classic style rock and roll song the once dynamic duo can muster, a new song (so Mike has a prominently placed new Wilson/Love collaboration.
3. Do You Have Any Regrets (Wilson) Done in the D. Sahanaja style, a nice way for the whole group to kind-of apologize publicly to one another without being weird. Great song in that style. I’d split the vocals among the group.
4. [Rock and Roll Song] (Wilson/Love) Again, I admit I’m front loading to make Mike happy.
5. [Folk Song] (Jardine or Jardine/whoever) Something folkie would actually be a lot more interesting than Waves of Love. In fact, if it’s Waves of Love, I’ll be sad. Officially sad. Instead let’s do an Americana kind of early 70s Al song, including Blondie and Ricky (pedal steel).
6. [Ballad] (Johnston) But not one he’s already released.
7. Run James Run (Wilson/Thomas) I’m not excited to include a re-released song, but come on: this is a Beach Boys song! Dave on guitar, Al (back? … I swear I already hear him in there sometimes) on some of the vocals to remove Brian’s mush mouthed moments, get Mike in there, it’s a car song… This could rock. If it were on a real album, I couldn’t bring myself to do it. But let’s be honest, nobody heard this.
8. [Rock and Roll Song] (Wilson/Anyone)
9. [Rock and Roll Song] (Marks or Marks/whoever) Let the man play some surf guitar and sing a bit.
10. Mary Ann (Wilson/Paley) I’m a sucker for this one. It’s the kind of rock and roll Brian means when he talks about rock and roll. It’s not released. Do it!
11. [Ballad] (Wilson) Ideally a group vocal a la Surfer Girl or In My Room, something sweet and rich.
12. [Dennis Non-Ballad] (D. Wilson or D. Wilson/whoever) I’m not sure what the song ought to be, but if there’s something kind of funky and tuneful that’s unreleased, not necessarily a rocker but not a ballad either, I’d use it. Totally rerecord everything but his voice, though.
13. I Wish For You (C. Wilson) Another released song, and I don’t love that. But I say use this Beckley Lamm Wilson tune: beautiful vocal that the group could absolutely sweeten. And it could segue into…
14. [Short a cappella outro] (Wilson or Wilson/Love) Wordless, simple words, I don’t care. End with harmony.
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Post by B.E. on May 15, 2020 20:20:58 GMT
The emphasis is on melody and harmony, with an eye toward ensuring we’re writing material that the group can perform without excess studio magic. Ah, it should go without saying, but NO autotune! (Or at least keep it to a bare minimum.)
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Post by Kapitan on May 15, 2020 20:24:22 GMT
The emphasis is on melody and harmony, with an eye toward ensuring we’re writing material that the group can perform without excess studio magic. Ah, it should go without saying, but NO autotune! (Or at least keep it to a bare minimum.) Yeah, I wouldn't say "no," but I'd say "I don't want to notice on a casual listen." No robot-voices.
The whole topic of vocals would be a touchy one because the best-preserved voice is easily Al's, and realistically it is noticeably worn and has a reduced range despite the repeated claims of how he sounds "just like he did 50 years ago." Sorry. But he doesn't. And nobody can sing the falsetto parts decently, or even high tenor parts for long stretches.
I think the answer is a combination of writing parts that suit their current ranges as best as possible, but because Beach Boys music NEEDS high falsetto and tight tenor harmonies, we need the vocal contributions of those others I named. Let's avoid another Jeff co-solo album like TWGMTR, but yes, the likes of Matt, Brian, Darian, Probyn, Scott...they're necessary.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 15, 2020 21:40:01 GMT
The Beach Boys, EventideProduced by The Beach Boys with Scott Totten and Darian Sahanaja Brian Wilson - Vocals, Piano, Organ, Harpsichord Mike Love - Vocals Al Jardine - Vocals, Guitar, Banjo Bruce Johnston - Vocals, Piano David Marks - Guitar Feat. Blondie Chaplin - Guitar, Vocals Feat. Ricky Fataar - Pedal Steel, Vocals With Matt Jardine, Brian Eichenberger, Probyn Gregory, John Cowsill, Scott Totten, Darian Sahanaja, and Paul Mertens. The album is intended as relatively straightforward—no, not live. Not unplugged. Just not a kitchen-sink kind of affair—and mature, but not overly serious. I don’t want the creepy Mike Love pretending to be cruisin’ for chicks (or self-referencing, goddamnit), but I don’t want a massive downer either. Let’s have FUN, but acknowledge we’re a bunch of 70-something men. The emphasis is on melody and harmony, with an eye toward ensuring we’re writing material that the group can perform without excess studio magic. The non-Beach Boys musicians are there to provide a solid instrumental bedrock and contribute as necessary to ensure high quality vocals. 1. [Short a cappella intro] (Wilson or Wilson/Love) Whether it’s a wordless piece or something more like “Meant For You,” I think it’s a winning formula for an opener. 2. [Rock and Roll Song] (Wilson/Love) The best classic style rock and roll song the once dynamic duo can muster, a new song (so Mike has a prominently placed new Wilson/Love collaboration. 3. Do You Have Any Regrets (Wilson) Done in the D. Sahanaja style, a nice way for the whole group to kind-of apologize publicly to one another without being weird. Great song in that style. I’d split the vocals among the group. 4. [Rock and Roll Song] (Wilson/Love) Again, I admit I’m front loading to make Mike happy. 5. [Folk Song] (Jardine or Jardine/whoever) Something folkie would actually be a lot more interesting than Waves of Love. In fact, if it’s Waves of Love, I’ll be sad. Officially sad. Instead let’s do an Americana kind of early 70s Al song, including Blondie and Ricky (pedal steel). 6. [Ballad] (Johnston) But not one he’s already released. 7. Run James Run (Wilson/Thomas) I’m not excited to include a re-released song, but come on: this is a Beach Boys song! Dave on guitar, Al (back? … I swear I already hear him in there sometimes) on some of the vocals to remove Brian’s mush mouthed moments, get Mike in there, it’s a car song… This could rock. If it were on a real album, I couldn’t bring myself to do it. But let’s be honest, nobody heard this. 8. [Rock and Roll Song] (Wilson/Anyone) 9. [Rock and Roll Song] (Marks or Marks/whoever) Let the man play some surf guitar and sing a bit. 10. Mary Ann (Wilson/Paley) I’m a sucker for this one. It’s the kind of rock and roll Brian means when he talks about rock and roll. It’s not released. Do it! 11. [Ballad] (Wilson) Ideally a group vocal a la Surfer Girl or In My Room, something sweet and rich. 12. [Dennis Non-Ballad] (D. Wilson or D. Wilson/whoever) I’m not sure what the song ought to be, but if there’s something kind of funky and tuneful that’s unreleased, not necessarily a rocker but not a ballad either, I’d use it. Totally rerecord everything but his voice, though. 13. I Wish For You (C. Wilson) Another released song, and I don’t love that. But I say use this Beckley Lamm Wilson tune: beautiful vocal that the group could absolutely sweeten. And it could segue into… 14. [Short a cappella outro] (Wilson or Wilson/Love) Wordless, simple words, I don’t care. End with harmony. I like it a lot - the number of songs, integrating both Blondie and Ricky into the project, the amount of rock & roll you're hoping for (with surf guitar!), and the way you're "spreading the wealth" songwriting-wise. I'm a little surprised, but I like it, that you're including a Dennis (what do you think about "Constant Companion"?) and a Carl song. I'm even more surprised that you would accept(?) Mike collaborating with Brian on a few songs but I like that, too. The a capella intro and ending would be a nice touch. And, I think you picked the best backing musicians, except for one .
It's a matter of opinion and personal preference, but I much prefer Joe Thomas over Scott Totten and Darian Shanaja as Producer(s) of the album. I love Scott; he's a brilliant musician and a great guy, but I do not like his production work on Mike's recent recordings. I feel the same way about Darian, though he hasn't produced much lately. I just don't know if those two guys can say "no" when they have to. When I hear Mike's last couple of records, I think Scott should've said "no" more often. At least with Joe Thomas I know what I'm getting, and he'll make the record and the guys - especially Brian - sound great. I would just say, "Joe, make it sound like TWGMTHR and No Pier Pressure", and I wouldn't worry. Without Joe, I'd worry.
Honestly, I never thought of "I Wish For You", but there's something about it that just doesn't feel right; maybe because it was already released (although hardly anybody heard it). Maybe the lyrics, while kind of appropriate, are a little dated with Carl being gone for 22 years. I have to think about this one some more. It's intriguing. It just seems like a lot of previously released/already heard songs. Not heard by many people, but released nevertheless. Another personal opinion, but I don't want Matt Jardine singing the high part on these songs. He's past him prime as far as his falsetto and high singing is concerned. Unfortunately, Jeff Foskett isn't available, but Brian Eichenberger is. And, please, at least let/make BW try some high parts this time, autotuned or not.
But, yeah, I like what you came up with. I'd buy it and enjoy the hell out of it. Rock on!
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Post by Kapitan on May 15, 2020 23:59:17 GMT
A few responses.
I spread the songwriting (and included the posthumous Carl and Dennis, plus new Blondie and Ricky) because it struck me as appropriate for a final--not accidentally, but a known, planned final--release. (As for my thoughts on Constant Companion? Not good. I might not be the guy to pick the Dennis song, as I'd scrap most of them. But something like Barnyard Blues would be ok.)
I added plenty of Love/Wilson co-writes and rock and roll because I think that's what it would take for Mike to be invested in the project.
I used some older, in some cases officially previously released songs because I'm under no illusions about how active the guys (and especially Brian) seem to be. If a song was done before but only booted, or on an unknown comp, I will begrudgingly allow it. I'm not saying it's the best case scenario, but under the circumstances? Maybe.
As for production...I fear Thomas is seen as too much in the Wilson camp, and I fear that his productions are more elaborate than what I'd anticipate as the vibe I'm seeking. Totten and Sahanaja are supremely gifted at getting high quality live performances, and that's more closely related to what I'd be after. And they are intimates of Love and Wilson, trusted collaborators.
Now, as for why I'd be taking into consideration things like potential band politics for my personal wish-list of a speculative album? That's just called Beach Boys fandom (or possibly some personality characteristics that leave me on the spectrum).
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