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Post by Kapitan on Apr 1, 2020 15:23:56 GMT
it just doesn't hold up against other Christmas albums, IMO of course. I agree with that. But I just think there are other BW albums that are even less essential. But realistically the list of not essential BW albums is a lot longer than the alternative list of essential ones.
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Post by kds on Apr 1, 2020 15:36:00 GMT
It's easy for me to compare one BB/BB solo album against another one, maybe because there's so many. But, with What I Really Want For Christmas, because of the nature of the material (holiday/Christmas tunes), I can't help but compare it with other Christmas albums. Again, I just listened to it in full yesterday (and re-sequenced it ), and it just doesn't hold up against other Christmas albums, IMO of course. I think there are better Christmas albums sure, but just pitting it against other BW solo albums, it fares far better IMO.
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Post by B.E. on Apr 1, 2020 16:40:52 GMT
I tried to be a bit more objective than subjective. Otherwise we're liable to contribute to the vagueness of what is or isn't essential. For instance, my favorite Led Zeppelin album is Physical Graffiti, but I didn't choose it as their most essential. Also, my nonessential choices are limited to albums I'm sufficiently familiar with.
Bob Dylan - Bringing It All Back Home / Self Portrait The Doors - LA Woman / The Soft Parade Led Zeppelin - IV / Presence George Harrison - All Things Must Pass / Gone Troppo Cat Stevens - Teaser and the Firecat / Izitso James Taylor - Sweet Baby James / That's Why I'm Here Harry Nilsson - Nilsson Schmilsson / Flash Harry Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers - Damn The Torpedoes / The Last DJ
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Post by kds on Apr 1, 2020 16:51:06 GMT
I tried to be a bit more objective than subjective. Otherwise we're liable to contribute to the vagueness of what is or isn't essential. For instance, my favorite Led Zeppelin album is Physical Graffiti, but I didn't choose it as their most essential. Also, my nonessential choices are limited to albums I'm sufficiently familiar with. Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers - Damn The Topedoes / The Last DJ The title track for The Last DJ had me very excited, but it turned out to be a pretty mediocre album overall.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 1, 2020 16:56:48 GMT
I tried to be a bit more objective than subjective. Otherwise we're liable to contribute to the vagueness of what is or isn't essential. For instance, my favorite Led Zeppelin album is Physical Graffiti, but I didn't choose it as their most essential. Also, my nonessential choices are limited to albums I'm sufficiently familiar with. That's how I was viewing it, too.
Good choices, by the way.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 1, 2020 17:03:52 GMT
I tried to be a bit more objective than subjective. Otherwise we're liable to contribute to the vagueness of what is or isn't essential. For instance, my favorite Led Zeppelin album is Physical Graffiti, but I didn't choose it as their most essential. Also, my nonessential choices are limited to albums I'm sufficiently familiar with. The Doors - LA Woman / The Soft Parade ...and you knew I'd be responding.
While The Soft Parade might be the weakest of the bunch, all Doors' albums are essential. The Soft Parade includes "Touch Me", "Wild Child", "Shaman's Blues", "Wishful Sinful", and the title track. Those are excellent songs. Also, IMO, while The Soft Parade and Waiting For The Sun are generally considered to be the weakest albums in the group's catalogue, I don't think they deviate or separate themselves from the other Doors' albums significantly enough to be considered non-essential. If not songwriting, too much great musicianship and singing.
You got that!
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Post by B.E. on Apr 1, 2020 17:03:57 GMT
I tried to be a bit more objective than subjective. Otherwise we're liable to contribute to the vagueness of what is or isn't essential. For instance, my favorite Led Zeppelin album is Physical Graffiti, but I didn't choose it as their most essential. Also, my nonessential choices are limited to albums I'm sufficiently familiar with. Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers - Damn The Torpedoes / The Last DJ The title track for The Last DJ had me very excited, but it turned out to be a pretty mediocre album overall. Yeah, I think it was his most mediocre to date. I vaguely remember being excited by the title track at the time of its release, but I relistened to the album about a month ago and it actually turned out to be my least favorite song.
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Post by B.E. on Apr 1, 2020 17:19:27 GMT
I tried to be a bit more objective than subjective. Otherwise we're liable to contribute to the vagueness of what is or isn't essential. For instance, my favorite Led Zeppelin album is Physical Graffiti, but I didn't choose it as their most essential. Also, my nonessential choices are limited to albums I'm sufficiently familiar with. The Doors - LA Woman / The Soft Parade ...and you knew I'd be responding.
While The Soft Parade might be the weakest of the bunch, all Doors' albums are essential. The Soft Parade includes "Touch Me", "Wild Child", "Shaman's Blues", "Wishful Sinful", and the title track. Those are excellent songs. Also, IMO, while The Soft Parade and Waiting For The Sun are generally considered to be the weakest albums in the group's catalogue, I don't think they deviate or separate themselves from the other Doors' albums significantly enough to be considered non-essential. If not songwriting, too much great musicianship and singing.
You got that! I hear ya! But, honestly, I was prepared to wave the white flag if you had objected to my choice of LA Woman over The Doors or Strange Days for most essential, but I don't feel quite the same way when it comes to nonessential (or least essential, if you will). I consider the 3 above albums equally essential, so I just went with my favorite, but in doing so I've failed to include that classic/influential, psychedelic sound of their best tracks from the first two albums. As for The Soft Parade and/or Waiting For The Sun, even you've admitted they're weaker (if only slightly). I'll grant you this, all (Morrison) Doors albums are essential for Doors fans, but I feel this thread is more about music fans in general. If you could only ensure one Doors album is listened to by all music fans for generations to come, which one would it be?
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 1, 2020 17:27:26 GMT
I do think there's a difference in there between good and essential. I think BE is approaching it along the lines I would. The biggest trick is of course those artists or bands you just don't like. So for me, Neil Young has zero essential albums. But others would strongly disagree. But I think even in those situations, you can be objective and say OK, many/most rock fans disagree with my opinion, and this is the one they'd pick.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 1, 2020 17:35:42 GMT
I think we're too easily designating the albums as non-essential. They might not be good, they might even approach bad, but I think even one or two songs qualifies an album as being essential, assuming those one or two songs are essential. The best example I can use would be That's Why God Made The Radio (and it's just a personal opinion). To me, there are only one or two songs that salvage the album, and I have to seriously question if those two songs are strong enough to make the album rise to essential. It's very, very close.
And, taking my own advice, I probably should reconsider my designating Carl Wilson's first solo album as non-essential. "Heaven" is a tremendous song. Essential listening.
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Post by B.E. on Apr 1, 2020 17:45:48 GMT
I do think there's a difference in there between good and essential. I think BE is approaching it along the lines I would. The biggest trick is of course those artists or bands you just don't like. So for me, Neil Young has zero essential albums. But others would strongly disagree. But I think even in those situations, you can be objective and say OK, many/most rock fans disagree with my opinion, and this is the one they'd pick.
There are also (many) artists with essential music, but not necessarily a particular studio or live album that makes the cut (the stricter we're being). For many artists, a greatest hits compilation might be essential, but that might be it. I think we're too easily designating the albums as non-essential. They might not be good, they might even approach bad, but I think even one or two songs qualifies an album as being essential, assuming those one or two songs are essential. The best example I can use would be That's Why God Made The Radio (and it's just a personal opinion). To me, there are only one or two songs that salvage the album, and I have to seriously question if those two songs are strong enough to make the album rise to essential. It's very, very close. Personally, I think that's too loose of an interpretation. Everything has its fans. The more albums we include the more meaningless the designation becomes. That said, I think the nature of TWGMTR (being both their reunion album and, presumably, last album) elevates its importance a little bit.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 1, 2020 17:56:17 GMT
I think we're too easily designating the albums as non-essential. They might not be good, they might even approach bad, but I think even one or two songs qualifies an album as being essential, assuming those one or two songs are essential. The best example I can use would be That's Why God Made The Radio (and it's just a personal opinion). To me, there are only one or two songs that salvage the album, and I have to seriously question if those two songs are strong enough to make the album rise to essential. It's very, very close.
And, taking my own advice, I probably should reconsider my designating Carl Wilson's first solo album as non-essential. "Heaven" is a tremendous song. Essential listening.
Can't agree with that. Not at all.
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Post by kds on Apr 1, 2020 17:59:07 GMT
I do think there's a difference in there between good and essential. I think BE is approaching it along the lines I would. The biggest trick is of course those artists or bands you just don't like. So for me, Neil Young has zero essential albums. But others would strongly disagree. But I think even in those situations, you can be objective and say OK, many/most rock fans disagree with my opinion, and this is the one they'd pick.
That was pretty much my intention when I posted this. I actually do like several of the albums I deemed "non essential." Personally, I also can't just say every album by my favorite band is "essential" because I just don't feel that way.
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Post by kds on Apr 1, 2020 18:02:28 GMT
I think we're too easily designating the albums as non-essential. They might not be good, they might even approach bad, but I think even one or two songs qualifies an album as being essential, assuming those one or two songs are essential. The best example I can use would be That's Why God Made The Radio (and it's just a personal opinion). To me, there are only one or two songs that salvage the album, and I have to seriously question if those two songs are strong enough to make the album rise to essential. It's very, very close.
And, taking my own advice, I probably should reconsider my designating Carl Wilson's first solo album as non-essential. "Heaven" is a tremendous song. Essential listening.
I think you and I have differing views on this exercise. For me, it takes more than one or two tracks to seem an album "essential." Take the Genesis album We Can't Dance. I'm actually a fan of the poppier version of Genesis, and I like 4-5 songs on the album, but to be the album is overly long, and has way too much fluff. And for the most part, the best tracks can be found on various Genesis compilations.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 1, 2020 18:05:14 GMT
I do think there's a difference in there between good and essential. I think BE is approaching it along the lines I would. The biggest trick is of course those artists or bands you just don't like. So for me, Neil Young has zero essential albums. But others would strongly disagree. But I think even in those situations, you can be objective and say OK, many/most rock fans disagree with my opinion, and this is the one they'd pick.
That was pretty much my intention when I posted this. I actually do like several of the albums I deemed "non essential." Personally, I also can't just say every album by my favorite band is "essential" because I just don't feel that way. I agree. In fact, for the Beach Boys, I still think Pet Sounds is the only essential album. I really love about 10 others, and like something on almost all of them, but I can't say they're essential.
Also I look at essential as, does this album matter in rock music history? Is it the kind of thing you'd learn in K-12 education, if K-12 education taught popular music the same way it does American history and basic biology? That kind of thing. Just as you can dig in deep to the Civil War, really understand all the key characters, the motivations, the legislation, the executive actions, the battles, the strategies, what most people do is get a basic understanding: names, dates, basic reason, the end.
Can you be reasonably educated in popular music if you don't have that album in question? That's kind of how I'd look at it.
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