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Post by kds on Jan 14, 2020 15:21:26 GMT
I had to revive the thread, not just because I love when KDS is in Grumpy Old Man mode, but because of something relevant ... and startling! I heard a story on NPR this morning that actually made me feel sympathetic toward the Hall of Fame. The story was (this being NPR) primarily about the "gender inequity" (to use the parlance of the moment) that exists in the Hall's membership (with a little about racial inequity thrown in because, hey, why not?). First of all, it's getting extremely tiresome to keep reading and hearing "yeah, but you're a white man" as if it were an actual, substantive response. Truly, it's annoying. It isn't going to kill me to keep hearing it, but it's hard to respect anyone whose argument doesn't go further. Second, to discuss the goal of a gender- and race-neutral selection criteria. I have to ask, what's wrong with that? If the Hall is supposed to be about the best rock and roll music, shouldn't the criteria be based on the question of "what is the best rock and roll music?" If 92% of the Hall were female, should we be fighting to get more men into it? If 75% of the Hall were black, should we be fighting to get more whites into it? Or should we be focused on the actual substance of the Hall?
There is a difference between "we want to recognize music in a demographically proportionate representation of American people" and "we want to recognize the best rock and roll." And that leads to... Third, rock and roll has been overwhelmingly white and male. I'm not saying that is good or bad, I'm just saying that it is. You can debate the reasons for it--I'd personally guess that it's a combination of America, especially in rock's heyday, being overwhelmingly white and rock and roll appealing more to aggressive boys/men than to girls/women combined with the obvious social and professional restrictions that were on girls and women during its first decades--but it's true regardless of the reasons. So if we're looking at the Hall, the first decades of it were bound to represent the first decades of the form (25 years prior). Those artists were going to be wildly disproportionately white and male. As time went on, the industry opened up and more great female or nonwhite artists were more able to enter the fray. But it doesn't mean it became demographically representative, and we shouldn't assume that the best of it is, either. But it doesn't help to extend the stupidity of the argument into absurdist territory: "Last year, [McDonnell] did an analysis of gender representation in the hall of fame and found a problem. For every female bandleader inducted, her male band mates also go into the hall of fame. McDonnell discovered that, over the course of 34 years, that process has yielded 69 women out of 888 inductees — or less than 8%."
So the fact that backup musicians were more often men than women, even in woman-led bands, is also sexist? Does she want only bandleaders to be inducted? Should bands be required to be demographically representative? Should female-led bands only include female background musicians? It's nonsense. 9.1% of nurses in America are male, meaning presumably 90.9% of them are female. This isn't necessarily a reflection of sexism any more than the RnR HoF being about 92% male is a reflection of sexism. The NBA is 75% black. I'd guess its HoF is roughly 75% black, and we shouldn't be going out of our way to force it into the national demographic that would repress its black membership to 13%.
The HoF is awful for a lot of reasons. It's irrelevant for a lot of reasons. Its judgment is terrible. But let's cut the crap: it doesn't deserve to be attacked for sexism or racism in its inductees. If we were looking at a HoF without Aretha Franklin, Diana Ross, Tina Turner, or Janis Joplin, or a HoF without Chuck Berry, Little Richard, or Fats Domino, we could be having this conversation more seriously. But we're not.
We're looking at a majority male, majority white genre and complaining that its best practitioners appear to be majority male, majority white.
When people say political correctness is running amok, this is the kind of thing we're talking about. This is absolutely ridiculous. This is the same kind of SJW horseshit that calls A Christmas Story "problematic," or Pet Sounds "racist," or California Girls "sexist." But, then again, I'm a white male, so many will say my gripes hold no weight. I'm also a Judas Priest fan, and I hope they get the call this week. EDIT - Quick note on the Hall. Thank goodness they got it right with Rush, and inducted them while Geddy, Alex, and Neil were still around.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 14, 2020 16:17:03 GMT
Maybe Rob Halford's homosexuality will weigh in their favor. (Though I doubt Rob Halford would hope so.)
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Post by kds on Jan 14, 2020 16:21:37 GMT
Maybe Rob Halford's homosexuality will weigh in their favor. (Though I doubt Rob Halford would hope so.) Sadly, that could actually help them.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 14, 2020 16:30:30 GMT
There is just something wrong with a world in which we worry about what happens in Rob Halford's bedroom rather than that he was a featured participant in the creation of things like British Steel--especially in the context of an organization dedicated to honoring music.
Obviously almost nobody believes there should be artificial barriers like gender, race, or sexuality. But neither should those be shortcuts. They simply should not be criteria at all. And if there happen to be more straight white guys in the RnR HoF, that might just be how it goes, just like there are more (presumably straight) black guys in the NBA HoF (or rap HoF, blues HoF, or jazz HoF), or how if there were a nurses' HoF, I'm sure it would be overwhelmingly women, or a Broadway HoF it would probably be disproportionately white with the men disproportionately gay, or an over-representation of Hispanic people in a mariachi HoF. These aren't value judgments, they are just reflections of reality.
I hope every deserving woman (or nonwhite) candidate makes the RnR Hof. And I hope no undeserving ones make it. But THAT horse is long-since out of the barn since as we always note, the HoF is a joke.
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Post by kds on Jan 14, 2020 17:01:07 GMT
I agree with everything you wrote. It's sad that, in order to avoid excluded people due to gender or race, the Hall doesn't adhere to a very important barrier - whether or not the artist is a rock and roll artist.
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Post by kds on Jan 15, 2020 13:50:12 GMT
The Class of 2020
Depeche Mode The Doobie Brothers Nine Inch Nails The Notorious BIG Whitney Houston
Well, they got one right. The Doobies have been long overdue.
But, this is their weakest class in years. I typically spend about 364 days not caring what this elitist institution and insult to rock and roll has to say, but for one day a year......
Fuck the Rock and Roll HOF
Fuck them for having more rap artists than heavy metal artists
Fuck them for having the balls to sell merch from bands they've snubbed
Fuck them for not including Bruce Johnston with The Beach Boys or Ronnie James Dio with Black Sabbath
Fuck them for putting political correctness over art
Fuck them for waiting until the likes of Mike Smith, Jon Lord, and Ray Thomas died before their bands finally got the call
There, I'm done until the next round of bullshit in January 2021
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 15, 2020 14:01:54 GMT
The Class of 2020 Depeche Mode The Doobie Brothers Nine Inch Nails The Notorious BIG Whitney Houston Well, they got one right. The Doobies have been long overdue. But, this is their weakest class in years. I typically spend about 364 days not caring what this elitist institution and insult to rock and roll has to say, but for one day a year...... Fuck the Rock and Roll HOF Fuck them for having for rap artists than heavy metal artists Fuck them for having the balls to sell merch from bands they've snubbed Fuck them for not including Bruce Johnston with The Beach Boys or Ronnie James Dio with Black Sabbath Fuck them for putting political correctness over art Fuck them for waiting until the likes of Mike Smith, Jon Lord, and Ray Thomas died before their bands finally got the call There, I'm done until the next round of bullshit in January 2021 I can't believe how weak that class is. With me, the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame is starting to resemble the way I listen to music. There was a time when I really looked forward to the inductions and enjoyed watching the video of the ceremony, especially the closing jam. But each year, my enthusiasm for the inductees and the ceremony has waned consistently - kind of like the way I (don't) appreciate newer music through the years, too. In this new class, The Doobie Brothers is the only inductee that I have even a little interest in seeing or hearing. Old man rant over - for now.
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Post by kds on Jan 15, 2020 14:16:56 GMT
The Class of 2020 Depeche Mode The Doobie Brothers Nine Inch Nails The Notorious BIG Whitney Houston Well, they got one right. The Doobies have been long overdue. But, this is their weakest class in years. I typically spend about 364 days not caring what this elitist institution and insult to rock and roll has to say, but for one day a year...... Fuck the Rock and Roll HOF Fuck them for having for rap artists than heavy metal artists Fuck them for having the balls to sell merch from bands they've snubbed Fuck them for not including Bruce Johnston with The Beach Boys or Ronnie James Dio with Black Sabbath Fuck them for putting political correctness over art Fuck them for waiting until the likes of Mike Smith, Jon Lord, and Ray Thomas died before their bands finally got the call There, I'm done until the next round of bullshit in January 2021 I can't believe how weak that class is. With me, the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame is starting to resemble the way I listen to music. There was a time when I really looked forward to the inductions and enjoyed watching the video of the ceremony, especially the closing jam. But each year, my enthusiasm for the inductees and the ceremony has waned consistently - kind of like the way I (don't) appreciate newer music through the years, too. In this new class, The Doobie Brothers is the only inductee that I have even a little interest in seeing or hearing. Old man rant over - for now. I think what gets me is that they were finally starting to get things right in recent years. Long time snubs The Moody Blues, Purple, Chicago, Journey, etc etc were finally getting in. But, this class is a gigantic step backwards.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 15, 2020 14:29:38 GMT
I can't believe how weak that class is. With me, the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame is starting to resemble the way I listen to music. There was a time when I really looked forward to the inductions and enjoyed watching the video of the ceremony, especially the closing jam. But each year, my enthusiasm for the inductees and the ceremony has waned consistently - kind of like the way I (don't) appreciate newer music through the years, too. In this new class, The Doobie Brothers is the only inductee that I have even a little interest in seeing or hearing. Old man rant over - for now. I think what gets me is that they were finally starting to get things right in recent years. Long time snubs The Moody Blues, Purple, Chicago, Journey, etc etc were finally getting in. But, this class is a gigantic step backwards. I still think eventually - and obviously I can't predict how many years it will take - every artist that even remotely deserves to be in the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame will get in, much like the sports' hall of fames. Not to get off track, but I saw that the NFL had a special committee formed for the Centennial Year of the league, and this committee had a special election to vote more players into the pro football hall of fame, players who might not have gotten in the regular way. Did you see that? Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher were two of them that got in. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that eventually happens with the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame. A veterans' committee for rock & rollers if you will.
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Post by kds on Jan 15, 2020 14:41:23 GMT
I think what gets me is that they were finally starting to get things right in recent years. Long time snubs The Moody Blues, Purple, Chicago, Journey, etc etc were finally getting in. But, this class is a gigantic step backwards. I still think eventually - and obviously I can't predict how many years it will take - every artist that even remote deserves to be in the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame will get in, much like the sports' hall of fames. Not to get off track, but I saw that the NFL had a special committee formed for the Centennial Year of the league, and this committee had a special election to vote more players into the pro football hall of fame, players who might not have gotten in the regular way. Did you see that? Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher were two of them. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that eventually happens with the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame. A veterans' committee for rock & rollers if you will. I saw that with the Football HOF. I think the biggest issue with the RNRHOF is the lack of criteria. You don't even have to have done rock and roll for goodness sake. I still don't see them opening the door for many prog, metal, or AOR acts. All three have been detested by critics for decades.
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Post by kds on May 12, 2021 14:21:38 GMT
Time to bump this thread again since the RNRHOF dropped the ball again ultimateclassicrock.com/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-2021-inductees/(The following rant is strictly my opinion). I'll say that I don't really have an issue with Rungren, King, the Go Gos, or Tina Turner so much....but the Fucking Foo Fighters before Iron Maiden. The Foo Fighters are the poster children for sanitized, generic, overly compressed, boring American radio rock in the 21st Century. They are hard rock for people who don't understand hard rock. They are the off brand version of hard rock. When you want to indulge in Oreos, but you get Walmart Great Value Sandwich Cookies, that's the Foo Fighters. When you want a GI Joe for Christmas, but your aunt gets you Army Steve from the Rite Aid, that's the Foo Fighters. Dave Grohl seems like a nice guy, and I'd bet if you ask him, he's probably a little pissed that they got in before Maiden or even Priest or Motorhead. But, I'm sorry Dave, your brand of 21st Century AOR is as exciting as waiting in line at the DMV. I don't like Nirvana at all, not one bit, but I get why they got it. Like them or not, they were game changers. Foo Fighters are barely game players. More bullshit from an absolutely clueless organization.
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Post by Kapitan on May 12, 2021 14:26:59 GMT
You've got to give them credit: they're consistent! It's a shame that this consistency is in the trait of "making stupid decisions," though.
I actually don't know a single Foo Fighters song. I've heard some. But I don't know any. They just wafted past me unimportantly, like so much rock of the post-grunge era.
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Post by kds on May 12, 2021 14:39:38 GMT
You've got to give them credit: they're consistent! It's a shame that this consistency is in the trait of "making stupid decisions," though.
I actually don't know a single Foo Fighters song. I've heard some. But I don't know any. They just wafted past me unimportantly, like so much rock of the post-grunge era.
They have a song called Everlong, that's probably over 20 years old now (Christ!) that I like, but that's about it. I honestly think they thrive on controversy. Over the next week, the Eddie Trunks of the world, along with several prominent rockers will take to the airwaves and social media about how stupid the RNRHOF is. The Hall will trend. Jann Wenner will laugh at all the cro magnon rockers who'll never fully grasp the "greatness" of The Smiths. Lather, rinse, repeat
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 13, 2021 11:30:18 GMT
OK, yes, I enjoyed "Our Lips Are Sealed", "We Got The Beat", and "Vacation" - both the songs and the videos. But, when I saw that The Go-Go's were elected to the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, I both shook my head and burst out laughing.
I realize you can't solely go with the commercial aspect (see The Velvet Underground); you have to look deeper at deeper aspects like the artistic value, the effect the music/musician had, etc. What am I looking at with the Go-Go's? They had three hit singles; none went to No. 1 and only two went Top 10. They basically released three albums; does anybody remember Talk Show? OK, let's just look at talent. No, I'm not a knowledgeable Go-Go's fan, but which member has Hall Of Fame talent?
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Post by kds on May 13, 2021 12:18:37 GMT
OK, yes, I enjoyed "Our Lips Are Sealed", "We Got The Beat", and "Vacation" - both the songs and the videos. But, when I saw that The Go-Go's were elected to the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, I both shook my head and burst out laughing.
I realize you can't solely go with the commercial aspect (see The Velvet Underground); you have to look deeper at deeper aspects like the artistic value, the effect the music/musician had, etc. What am I looking at with the Go-Go's? They had three hit singles; none went to No. 1 and only two went Top 10. They basically released three albums; does anybody remember Talk Show? OK, let's just look at talent. No, I'm not a knowledgeable Go-Go's fan, but which member has Hall Of Fame talent?
The induction of The Go Gos was 100% a political move IMO. As a band, I really don't feel like they have a HOF resume, but they were an all female rock band, so Jann and his merry band of hipsters are opting to look progressive here.
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