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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 13:12:44 GMT
And (hot take warning), I think Dennis's solo album is very overrated by BB fans. I actually rated it as high as 9 at one point on one board that may or may not exist, but the more I listen to it, the more I get a certain "same ness" among the songs, and I think "wow, a Carl vocal would sound great here" or "a Mike esque beachy song could be used to break this up a little."
I think 99% of the time, band material is better than solo material. Three, four, or five top talents will always be better than one.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 13:15:38 GMT
And (hot take warning), I think Dennis's solo album is very overrated by BB fans. I actually rated it as high as 9 at one point on one board that may or may not exist, but the more I listen to it, the more I get a certain "same ness" among the songs, and I think "wow, a Carl vocal would sound great here" or "a Mike esque beachy song could be used to break this up a little." I think 99% of the time, band material is better than solo material. Three, four, or five top talents will always be better than one. 100% agree with you (on both of your points, actually). I've taken a lot of shit over the years for not fawning over Dennis's solo material, actually. That's fine, but I'm not being contrarian: it's just not that good sometimes! I do like some of it, and he definitely had a cinematic scope to his musical thinking. But there is definitely sameness in there.
And groups almost always are better than solo artists. The creative tension that makes them a pain in the ass to participate in, and inevitably leads to them breaking up, also serves as a inspiration, copy editor, second set of eyes and ears, etc. It doesn't always work, obviously, but usually I think it's better with groups.
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 13:19:03 GMT
And (hot take warning), I think Dennis's solo album is very overrated by BB fans. I actually rated it as high as 9 at one point on one board that may or may not exist, but the more I listen to it, the more I get a certain "same ness" among the songs, and I think "wow, a Carl vocal would sound great here" or "a Mike esque beachy song could be used to break this up a little." I think 99% of the time, band material is better than solo material. Three, four, or five top talents will always be better than one. 100% agree with you (on both of your points, actually). I've taken a lot of shit over the years for not fawning over Dennis's solo material, actually. That's fine, but I'm not being contrarian: it's just not that good sometimes! I do like some of it, and he definitely had a cinematic scope to his musical thinking. But there is definitely sameness in there.
And groups almost always are better than solo artists. The creative tension that makes them a pain in the ass to participate in, and inevitably leads to them breaking up, also serves as a inspiration, copy editor, second set of eyes and ears, etc. It doesn't always work, obviously, but usually I think it's better with groups.
And I agree with you about Carl's solo material. Vocally, of course, it's great. But, the songs are very very meh. I think Dennis's material works really well when contrasted with the other guys. That's one of the reasons I love the 20/20, Sunflower, and Holland albums so much.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 28, 2019 13:24:54 GMT
And (hot take warning), I think Dennis's solo album is very overrated by BB fans. I actually rated it as high as 9 at one point on one board that may or may not exist, but the more I listen to it, the more I get a certain "same ness" among the songs, and I think "wow, a Carl vocal would sound great here" or "a Mike esque beachy song could be used to break this up a little." I think 99% of the time, band material is better than solo material. Three, four, or five top talents will always be better than one. 100% agree with you (on both of your points, actually). I've taken a lot of shit over the years for not fawning over Dennis's solo material, actually. That's fine, but I'm not being contrarian: it's just not that good sometimes! I do like some of it, and he definitely had a cinematic scope to his musical thinking. But there is definitely sameness in there.
And groups almost always are better than solo artists. The creative tension that makes them a pain in the ass to participate in, and inevitably leads to them breaking up, also serves as a inspiration, copy editor, second set of eyes and ears, etc. It doesn't always work, obviously, but usually I think it's better with groups.
You guys are getting my pressure to rise. But that's OK, it's been awhile since that happened on a BB forum.
Dennis Wilson's solo material - all of it going back to 1970 - is so far above ALL of the other BB solo releases. Dennis was getting dangerously close to surpassing his brother Brian as a composer. Take that! No Beach Boys' solo album surpassed Pacific Ocean Blue in songwriting, production, or performance. None.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 13:25:46 GMT
We still agree. And of course it makes sense: first, each guy brings 5-10 songs and they only take the best 10 of the 25-50; second, everyone weighs in on those remaining 10 to fine tune them; third, everyone participates in the performance of all 10. Beats the heck out of one person's best 10, which probably sound similar (coming from the same mind, his own taste, and his own performance).
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 13:27:47 GMT
100% agree with you (on both of your points, actually). I've taken a lot of shit over the years for not fawning over Dennis's solo material, actually. That's fine, but I'm not being contrarian: it's just not that good sometimes! I do like some of it, and he definitely had a cinematic scope to his musical thinking. But there is definitely sameness in there.
And groups almost always are better than solo artists. The creative tension that makes them a pain in the ass to participate in, and inevitably leads to them breaking up, also serves as a inspiration, copy editor, second set of eyes and ears, etc. It doesn't always work, obviously, but usually I think it's better with groups.
You guys are getting my pressure to rise. But that's OK, it's been awhile since that happened on a BB forum.
Dennis Wilson's solo material - all of it going back to 1970 - is so far above ALL of the other BB solo releases. Dennis was getting dangerously close to surpassing his brother Brian as a composer. Take that! No Beach Boys' solo album surpassed Pacific Ocean Blue in songwriting, production, or performance. None. I'd take BWPS, TLOS, NPP, Gershwin over POB for sure. And realistically, the competition is only Dennis v Brian or solo material. Mike's is pretty universally crap, Carl's unfortunately was, too. Bruce and Al barely exist.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 28, 2019 13:31:54 GMT
You guys are getting my pressure to rise. But that's OK, it's been awhile since that happened on a BB forum.
Dennis Wilson's solo material - all of it going back to 1970 - is so far above ALL of the other BB solo releases. Dennis was getting dangerously close to surpassing his brother Brian as a composer. Take that! No Beach Boys' solo album surpassed Pacific Ocean Blue in songwriting, production, or performance. None. I'd take BWPS, TLOS, NPP, Gershwin over POB for sure. And realistically, the competition is only Dennis v Brian or solo material. Mike's is pretty universally crap, Carl's unfortunately was, too. Bruce and Al barely exist. The only BB solo album that I would say approached Pacific Ocean Blue would be No Pier Pressure. The songs are quality, Brian's vocals are emotional, and Joe Thomas' production made that album sound great (as I enter my fallout shelter).
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 14:02:42 GMT
100% agree with you (on both of your points, actually). I've taken a lot of shit over the years for not fawning over Dennis's solo material, actually. That's fine, but I'm not being contrarian: it's just not that good sometimes! I do like some of it, and he definitely had a cinematic scope to his musical thinking. But there is definitely sameness in there.
And groups almost always are better than solo artists. The creative tension that makes them a pain in the ass to participate in, and inevitably leads to them breaking up, also serves as a inspiration, copy editor, second set of eyes and ears, etc. It doesn't always work, obviously, but usually I think it's better with groups.
You guys are getting my pressure to rise. But that's OK, it's been awhile since that happened on a BB forum.
Dennis Wilson's solo material - all of it going back to 1970 - is so far above ALL of the other BB solo releases. Dennis was getting dangerously close to surpassing his brother Brian as a composer. Take that! No Beach Boys' solo album surpassed Pacific Ocean Blue in songwriting, production, or performance. None. To each their own, but I prefer TLOS and NPP, and probably Imagination, to POB. I do think that Dennis surpassed Brian in the 1970s for a while, but I think most of Dennis's great songs are on Beach Boys albums.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 15:02:54 GMT
I think most of Dennis's great songs are on Beach Boys albums. I agree with that (though I'd probably replace "great" with "best"). That said, Rainbows, Pacific Ocean Blue, and River Song REALLY should have been on Beach Boys albums. (I also like What's Wrong, but it maybe doesn't feel as Beach Boysy.)
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 15:25:13 GMT
I think most of Dennis's great songs are on Beach Boys albums. I agree with that (though I'd probably replace "great" with "best"). That said, Rainbows, Pacific Ocean Blue, and River Song REALLY should have been on Beach Boys albums. (I also like What's Wrong, but it maybe doesn't feel as Beach Boysy.) I agree, and those are probably my favorite songs on POB as well.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 15:35:21 GMT
To me, those are some of the ones with motion. Too often, both within and outside of the Beach Boys, Dennis's songs just feel stagnant. They don't go anywhere. There aren't chord progressions that progress, they just slightly meander. They're usually overly long and too slow. Some people find it all very romantic. I find it boring. (Kind of ironic when his big brother created some of the most interesting and propulsive chord progressions in pop history.) His better music has some energy, some inertia.
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 15:40:56 GMT
To me, those are some of the ones with motion. Too often, both within and outside of the Beach Boys, Dennis's songs just feel stagnant. They don't go anywhere. There aren't chord progressions that progress, they just slightly meander. They're usually overly long and too slow. Some people find it all very romantic. I find it boring. (Kind of ironic when his big brother created some of the most interesting and propulsive chord progressions in pop history.) His better music has some energy, some inertia. I think in the same way Brian tended to get stuck in that Shorten Bread type structure, Dennis sort of got stuck in the slow melancholy songs.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 15:46:02 GMT
"Someone help me, I'm stuck somewhere between the Ding and the Dang and I can't find my way out!"
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 28, 2019 21:20:03 GMT
This has turned into the "Defend Dennis Wilson" thread for me. Yes, many of Dennis' songs are slow. Yes, some of them are slightly long. But boring? Hell no! They're packed with emotion. All of 'em.
And I don't agree that his better music had energy and inertia. By that I think you were implying that Dennis' fast stuff is better than his romantic ballads. Again I just don't agree. I find the faster songs on Pacific Ocean Blue to be the weakest (even though I like them; I don't mean they are weak songs). And that is ironic about Dennis. He was so fast, always on the go, couldn't sit still, a bundle of energy. Yet, I find his greatest work to be heartbreaking, romantic, SLOW ballads.
My Top 5 Dennis songs (in no particular order):
1. Thoughts Of You 2. End Of The Show 3. My Love Lives On 4. Lady/Fallin' In Love 5. Cuddle Up
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Jun 30, 2019 0:04:55 GMT
After listening to California Beach a few times, it feels like there is a really good song in there, but the production is holding it back. Someone mentioned that it would benefit from a more electric approach, rather than the sparse arrangement it got and I'd have to agree.
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