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Post by Kapitan on Apr 18, 2019 18:52:30 GMT
I think with respect to the quote, you’re seeing it mostly wrong. Jack, from what I remember reading, was no fan of the early hits. Consequently I doubt he’d either consider them underrated (when they were the popular part of the catalog) OR “their greatest music.”
Fans like us who consider the band underrated by the general public aren’t likely to say their greatest music is underrated, whether we consider it the hits or the under-the-radar parts.
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Apr 19, 2019 3:02:32 GMT
Considering where they were in their career, 1967 has to be the biggest blunder. Their failure is partly because I don't believe Heroes and Villains is a commercial enough song. People were ready for new Beach Boys material in mid 1967 and H&V quickly went to #12 on the charts... and quickly dropped off. All that waiting and most people were disappointed, then everyone was disappointed even more once Smiley Smile came out. I don't think missing Monterey was that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, but I'm sure it played a minor part as well. They gained some credibility back with Wild Honey, but Friends was not what people wanted in 1968.
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Post by kds on Apr 19, 2019 12:11:38 GMT
Considering where they were in their career, 1967 has to be the biggest blunder. Their failure is partly because I don't believe Heroes and Villains is a commercial enough song. People were ready for new Beach Boys material in mid 1967 and H&V quickly went to #12 on the charts... and quickly dropped off. All that waiting and most people were disappointed, then everyone was disappointed even more once Smiley Smile came out. I don't think missing Monterey was that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, but I'm sure it played a minor part as well. They gained some credibility back with Wild Honey, but Friends was not what people wanted in 1968. I'd agree with that year as the biggest blunder. Off the heals of Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, they dropped Smiley Smile, which for reasons unknown to this poster has become a cult favorite among the fanbase, but even its fans agree that the timing couldn't have been worse.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 19, 2019 12:52:31 GMT
They gained some credibility back with Wild Honey, but Friends was not what people wanted in 1968. I don't think Wild Honey was what the people wanted either.
I know I'm in the minority here, but despite Wild Honey charting fairly high and having a hit single with "Darlin'", I think it is partially and maybe significantly responsible for Friends' poor showing. IMO, fans were so disappointed with Smiley Smile that they couldn't wait for a new album to wash the taste of Smiley Smile out of their mouths. The problem was, Wild Honey was also a short, somewhat strange, not really Beach Boys-sounding album either. After two disappointing albums (Smiley Smile and Wild Honey) fans were leaping off a sinking ship and Friends paid for it.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 19, 2019 13:11:13 GMT
Just imagine there was no Smiley Smile, and Wild Honey included Time to Get Alone and With a Little Help From My Friends: a pair of more commercial, more "Beach Boys" sounding songs that still fit perfectly well with the rest of the album, not to mention bring it to a more respectable running time. They could have even mined some of the Smiley Smile songs like With Me Tonight or Vegetables.
As I was typing that, I was imagining H&V and GV weren't included, but now I'm thinking even GV would have been an interesting addition, considering its R&B feel in parts. I might have an alt Wild Honey on the way...
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 19, 2019 13:26:47 GMT
1967 – Identity Crisis pt I It’s less what was released—though I think that’s part of it—than the internal tension and identity crisis that led to those albums (and the one big non-album release … or album non-release … or whatever Smile was[n’t]). I love the Smile music and think it would have been well received had it come out in the first half of 1967. But I don’t think that was the only path, either. I think a more Wild Honey sound or a more Friends sound could have also done just fine and kept the band chugging along: one brought them back (but still moving forward, incorporating more of a Motown feel) into the rock and roll sound they started with, while the other is something like a progression after Pet Sounds. Both legitimate, exciting directions. Instead they seemed to try to go in every direction at once: full-on, weird psychedelia; RnB; and chamber pop, released in three brief documents, all within a year. See my above post, now...
Maybe if SMiLE had been released, Wild Honey and Friends would've been better received and the group could've moved forward. Maybe, but I still don't think so. Unlike The Beatles who were successful in changing their image with Rubber Soul and Revolver, The Beach Boys failed to change their image because SMiLE didn't come out and Smiley Smile (and Wild Honey and Friends) wasn't good enough...to sway... their fans in coming along (staying?) on the new journey. Again, with The Beatles, their fans said, "Hey, this new music ain't 'She Loves You' but it's really good." I just don't think enough fans embraced Smiley Smile to leave the old fun in the sun behind and explore new musical realms. Ditto for Wild Honey. Other than the "I Was Made To Love Her" cover, was Wild Honey really successful as a rhythm and blues/Motown styled album? I never heard it, and I don't think it contributed to keeping the BB train moving forward - or in another direction. Friends was dead in its tracks. Were Beach Boys' fans at that time interested IN A WHOLE album of Friends-like tracks? I think the only way Friends would've resonated with the fans in 1968 is if those stripped, softer songs were "sprinkled" among other heavier music a la The White Album - or SMiLE.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 19, 2019 13:36:51 GMT
I can't speak to how Beach Boys fans at the time felt, but I think Friends is great as it is. Not perfect, but really good.
As for Wild Honey, I still hold that there is an album's worth there that could have been well received. Not the classic sound, but with enough classic elements to keep things going. Working on that album now!
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Post by kds on Apr 19, 2019 14:29:47 GMT
I can't speak to how Beach Boys fans at the time felt, but I think Friends is great as it is. Not perfect, but really good.
As for Wild Honey, I still hold that there is an album's worth there that could have been well received. Not the classic sound, but with enough classic elements to keep things going. Working on that album now!
I think Friends is a good album, but with the possible exception of the title track, there are really no standout tracks. So, I can kind of see how that album would've have impressed many BB fans at the time.
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Post by B.E. on Apr 19, 2019 18:31:48 GMT
When Brian gave up the production race, he also (knowingly or not) gave up the commercial race. The Beatles maintained their popularity throughout the '60s, because they largely maintained their sound. For the most part, they'd take the equivalent of one step forward and one step to the side with each new release, whereas, the Beach Boys started taking 2 or 3 steps back and 5 or 6 steps to the side or 2 or 3 steps forward and ten steps to the other side. Or, well, you get the idea. For this reason, I think Kapitan's label of "identity crisis" is spot on. I think many fans accept the cyclical nature of popularity, but I don't think the Beach Boys popularity was destined to decline when it did. If the guys had maintained their mid-60s production values and their classic vocal harmony sound, then I believe they could have maintained their popularity while progressing stylistically. They changed too much, too soon, and not necessarily for the better. Look at the Beatles, it's really only when they gave up their own production values with Let It Be does their reputation really take a hit. If that wasn't their final album and they hadn't built up a decade's worth of unprecedented goodwill, then their careers may have been at a crossroads as well. I think their follow up album would have been crucial in determining if they maintained the same level of popularity that they had been accustomed to. Now, this thread is all about the Beach Boys careers. So, I agree with a lot of what's been said in this thread from a commercial standpoint. But, personally, I'm fine with how a lot of it played out. Particularly, in this era. Wild Honey and Friends are two of my favorite Beach Boys albums! I like them just the way they are.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 19, 2019 18:36:25 GMT
But, personally, I'm fine with how a lot of it played out. Particularly, in this era. Wild Honey and Friends are two of my favorite Beach Boys albums! I like them just the way they are. The benefit of being a younger fan who didn't deal with the music as it was released is that we didn't have to live through the expectations, the letdowns, the little gold nuggets throughout that (I'd imagine) served more as an annoying tease than a welcome respite. (I'm guessing I'd have been maddened, wondering "if they can still do this, why are they doing that?")
Instead, the catalog was more or less finished before I became a fan. Granted, I had to purchase it (there not being easy, free, high-quality listens in those days of the late 90s and early 00s), but at least it was there. So for us, it's easy to say these four songs are great, those five songs are great, make a playlist, etc.
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Post by eraserheadbaby on Apr 20, 2019 20:17:03 GMT
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Post by B.E. on Jul 14, 2020 21:25:50 GMT
I haven't been listening much to the Beach Boys lately. Thankfully, 'The Beach Boys vs. Everybody' thread concept has kept them in mind. As I've been listening to other artists, I've been comparing their albums to contemporary or contextually similar Beach Boys albums. Unfortunately, it's underscored something we are all very familiar with: The Beach Boys went long stretches without releasing ANYTHING. Between the March, 1980 release of KTSA and today, they released 3 and a half studio albums. That's 40 years! Even when you factor in solo albums, there are major gaps. So, at the moment, it's not any of their releases that bother me, or that I consider blown opportunities, it's the inactivity, it's all the wasted time.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 14, 2020 22:45:43 GMT
No question. Of course, when your best songwriter is more or less on his own through most of that time, arguably your second-best songwriter died pretty early in that time, arguably your best singer died halfway through that time, and the remaining living members had a habit of suing one another and quitting or being fired, that's no recipe for consistent output.
The beauty of being a Paul McCartney is you can just do another album. The Beach Boys couldn't, even if any individual Beach Boy could.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 15, 2020 17:55:14 GMT
History will show that The Beach Boys lived - and died - according to Brian Wilson. In 1967-68, they followed him down a path of commercial disappointment, because of that dwindling live audiences, and eventually bankruptcy (not blaming that on Brian) and being let go by their record company. Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends released at that particular time will do that to a band.
The same thing almost (in some people's opinions did) happened again in 1976-78.
When Brian went back to Landy the second time, his output would be both solo and shared with The Beach Boys. After marrying Melinda, it was game over for Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys. It would be several years before he worked with the band again, and that was one and done.
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Post by B.E. on Jul 15, 2020 18:15:45 GMT
^which is pretty damning when it comes to the songwriting abilities and recording artist ambitions of Al, Carl, and Mike.
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