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NBA
Jan 26, 2020 18:51:38 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 26, 2020 18:51:38 GMT
Since Dec. 1, the Minnesota Timberwolves have had losing streaks of 11 and 9 (and counting). This after a 10-8 start.
They benched the starting point guard, then traded him for a wing despite only otherwise having one (fringe-) NBA point guard. Every time somebody gets a cold, he sits 2, 3, 5 games. Our best player missed a month (15 games) with a knee injury that was described as day-to-day.
The tanking happening here somehow isn't being openly acknowledged in our local media, and obviously we're being ignored nationally because, duh. But it sure is an unfortunate turn, especially after having just watched Thibs waste the previous tank "process" (that's for you, Philly) by going all-in only to burn out immediately.
Yeah, I was thinking that there are a lot of similarities with Philly.
Any thoughts on the All-Star selections...so far?
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Jan 26, 2020 20:09:57 GMT
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 26, 2020 20:09:57 GMT
Kobe Bryant RIP
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NBA
Jan 26, 2020 20:18:42 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 26, 2020 20:18:42 GMT
Horrible, horrible news.
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Jan 26, 2020 20:32:37 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Jan 26, 2020 20:32:37 GMT
One of Philly's all-time great high school players, among the best shooting guards in history, among the most rare combinations of skill, intelligence, and athleticism we've seen.
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NBA
Jan 26, 2020 20:38:19 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 26, 2020 20:38:19 GMT
I was just thinking of Kobe last night while watching the Sixers/Lakers game and LeBron passed him on the all-time scoring list. Now, I just keep thinking about his wife and four daughters. It certainly puts things in perspective doesn't it...
EDIT: I just heard that Kobe's 13 year-old daughter, Gianna, was also killed in the crash. So sad.
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Jan 26, 2020 21:15:55 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 26, 2020 21:15:55 GMT
From Brian Wilson's Facebook page:
Brian Wilson 31 mins · Some of the most fun times I’ve had with my family has been going to Lakers games, so it is so shocking and so sad to hear about Kobe Bryant. Love and mercy to Kobe’s beautiful family.
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NBA
Jan 29, 2020 12:25:41 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 29, 2020 12:25:41 GMT
Last night for the Sixers/Warriors game. Joel Embiid wore No. 24 to honor Kobe Bryant. No 24 is a retired number by the 76ers, having been worn by Bobby Jones. Embiid called Bobby Jones to get permission to wear the number, and Jones agreed, telling Embiid to make sure he honored it properly by playing great defense. Joel Embiid finished the game with - 24 points and 8 defensive rebounds.
I have to ask, only because I've been there, if you watched the Wolves/Kings game? Oh my....
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NBA
Jan 29, 2020 12:34:17 GMT
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2020 12:34:17 GMT
Yes. And honestly I blame Thibs.
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NBA
Jan 29, 2020 14:28:13 GMT
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2020 14:28:13 GMT
This isn’t meant to disrespect Kobe Bryant or the tragedy of his and his daughter’s deaths. He was a great player and for anyone to see an early, unnatural end is tremendously sad. This is about perception and basketball. I think I knew it, more or less, but the past few days have crystalized for me the generational difference in people’s perceptions of Kobe Bryant as a basketball player. I think for people my age and older, he is a great player. One of the better wings—and even players—in history. But emphasis on the “one of the.” The argument that he was better than Michael Jordan is, at least to me, absurd. It doesn’t diminish Kobe in the slightest to say so. But consider the below, especially in the context of Kobe playing 20 seasons to Jordan’s 15. Titles: Jordan, 6 to 5 (40% of seasons to 25% of seasons) Playoff appearances: Kobe, 15 to 13 ( but Jordan 87% of seasons, Kobe 75% of seasons) MVPs: Jordan, 5 to 1 (33% of seasons to 5% of seasons) Finals MVPs: Jordan, 6 to 2 (40% to 10%) All-NBA First Team: Kobe, 11 to 10 (but Jordan, 67% to 55%) Scoring Titles: Jordan, 10 to 2 (67% to 10%) PPG: Jordan, 30.1 to 25.0 RPG: Jordan, 6.2 to 5.2 APG: Jordan, 5.3 to 4.7 SPG: Jordan, 2.3 to 1.4 BPG: Jordan, .8 to .5 FG%: Jordan, .497 to .447 3pt%: Kobe, .329 to .327 FT%: Kobe, .37 to .835 Peak season PPG: Jordan, 37.1 to 35.4 Peak RPG: Jordan, 8 to 6.9 Peak APG: Jordan 8 to 6.3 Peak SPG: Jordan 3.2 to 2.2 Peak BPG: Jordan, 1.6 to 1.0 What’s more, Kobe steadfastly refused to change his game as the game changed around him. Whereas late-career Michael Jordan began to gradually defer (with Jerry Stackhouse the leading scorer and shot-taker his final season) and, per Doug Collins’s game plan, typically played a forward position and did a lot of his work on the post, Kobe continued to dominate the ball (with his final season’s usage rate at 32.2 above his career average of 31.8; final season for Jordan was 28.7, well below his average of 33.3) and take the shots he wanted to take and historically took … hitting in the mid-30%s because of it, his final two seasons. Yet I keep reading things like “retire numbers 8 and 24 for the entire NBA.” Tragedy aside, I’m sorry, but that is not warranted for someone who is the second-best shooting guard in league history and probably barely, if at all, in the all-time Top 10 players.* I think people who keep saying he is the greatest of all time simply don’t know enough basketball history. (I would probably put Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Oscar, Magic, Larry, Duncan, and Lebron ahead of him with almost no hesitation. At that point, it gets interesting, with him in the company of people like Dr. J, Nowitzki, Barkley, Karl Malone, KG, and probably another 5 or 10 guys worthy of those next few spots.)
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Jan 29, 2020 15:04:52 GMT
Post by kds on Jan 29, 2020 15:04:52 GMT
I rarely comment on the NBA, but I also agree that the call to change the NBA logo or retire Bryant's number(s) across the board are a bit much. And, I don't think Kobe would want that honor just because his life was cut short.
I also came to ask a question. Kapitan, how do fans in Minnesota view the Lakers?
I know the Lakers' move to LA was longer ago, but there is still a lot of bitterness about the Colts in Baltimore, despite the success of our current team, the Ravens. So, I'm just curious how other cities deal with such things.
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Jan 29, 2020 15:23:50 GMT
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2020 15:23:50 GMT
Good question re the Lakers. I would say the feeling depends on who you’re talking to. Of course there are outliers in each group, but broadly speaking: 1. The biggest group even of sports fans in Minnesota put basketball on (at best) a secondary level: they care about the Vikings most of all, and hockey (whether the Wild or the sport generally, including college and even high school) in the mix as well. A LOT of Minnesotans consider basketball as just not that interesting or important, or maybe as an urban sport that isn’t for “us” (meaning the suburban, exurban, and rural people of mostly Scandinavian, German, or eastern European descent). That group doesn’t care about the Wolves, the Lakers, or anything else with a round, orange bouncy ball, except to mock. 2. Basketball fans who are roughly my age or older—meaning they remember the Wolves coming into existence—definitely still feel the sting. The Lakers were great while they were in Minneapolis, even dominant. And of course they went on to be mostly great ever since in Los Angeles. The Wolves coming into existence in 1989 helped, but they have been so, so bad year in and year out that it really just feeds into the resentment, jealousy, “why can’t we have nice things?” mentality of Minnesota sports fans. (That mentality crosses all sports and teams here, though. The pessimism and cynicism about sports here is unbelievable.) 3. Basketball fans who are younger, honestly I don’t think they’re even aware that the Lakers used to be here. The concept of the 1960s itself is pretty foreign to them, so I think it’s probably a little like Chicagoans bemoaning the loss of the Chicago Zephyrs (which became the Baltimore Bullets, which became the Washington Wizards). So overall, while we do still see the occasional “what could have been” kind of story, it has been mentioned in the media less and less in my lifetime. It is mostly relegated now to our 99-year-old (100 in March!) institution of a sportswriter, Sid Hartman. He was de facto GM of the Lakers, which in those days wasn’t seen as a conflict of interest for a newspaper reporter. He remains good for the occasional anecdote about those days and that team. But like most of our storytelling elders, a lot of people don’t care to listen and instead just find fault with this “weird old man” who doesn’t relate to the modern world.
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Jan 29, 2020 15:36:27 GMT
Post by kds on Jan 29, 2020 15:36:27 GMT
Good question re the Lakers. I would say the feeling depends on who you’re talking to. Of course there are outliers in each group, but broadly speaking: 1. The biggest group even of sports fans in Minnesota put basketball on (at best) a secondary level: they care about the Vikings most of all, and hockey (whether the Wild or the sport generally, including college and even high school) in the mix as well. A LOT of Minnesotans consider basketball as just not that interesting or important, or maybe as an urban sport that isn’t for “us” (meaning the suburban, exurban, and rural people of mostly Scandinavian, German, or eastern European descent). That group doesn’t care about the Wolves, the Lakers, or anything else with a round, orange bouncy ball, except to mock. 2. Basketball fans who are roughly my age or older—meaning they remember the Wolves coming into existence—definitely still feel the sting. The Lakers were great while they were in Minneapolis, even dominant. And of course they went on to be mostly great ever since in Los Angeles. The Wolves coming into existence in 1989 helped, but they have been so, so bad year in and year out that it really just feeds into the resentment, jealousy, “why can’t we have nice things?” mentality of Minnesota sports fans. (That mentality crosses all sports and teams here, though. The pessimism and cynicism about sports here is unbelievable.) 3. Basketball fans who are younger, honestly I don’t think they’re even aware that the Lakers used to be here. The concept of the 1960s itself is pretty foreign to them, so I think it’s probably a little like Chicagoans bemoaning the loss of the Chicago Zephyrs (which became the Baltimore Bullets, which became the Washington Wizards). So overall, while we do still see the occasional “what could have been” kind of story, it has been mentioned in the media less and less in my lifetime. It is mostly relegated now to our 99-year-old (100 in March!) institution of a sportswriter, Sid Hartman. He was de facto GM of the Lakers, which in those days wasn’t seen as a conflict of interest for a newspaper reporter. He remains good for the occasional anecdote about those days and that team. But like most of our storytelling elders, a lot of people don’t care to listen and instead just find fault with this “weird old man” who doesn’t relate to the modern world. Thanks for that. I'd say the story is fairly similar in Baltimore, except that Baltimore sports wise is a football first town. And the Colts haven't had success in Indianapolis like the Lakers have in LA.
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Jan 29, 2020 16:44:55 GMT
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2020 16:44:55 GMT
It’s funny, because while the Lakers are the most prominent team we’ve lost, we have lost others, and almost lost the rest. In hockey, the North Stars left Minnesota for Dallas in 1993. As a show of people’s priorities, the NHL awarded the Twin Cities a new hockey franchise in 1997, St. Paul financed the stadium and broke ground in 1998, and the Wild entered the league in 2000. All in all, there was a 7-year period without the NHL. Minnesotan hockey fans still dislike the Stars. In football, we’ve been threatened repeatedly. When Red McCombs owned the Vikings in the 90s and early 00s, there was always talk that the team was going to move: San Antonio, Los Angeles, wherever. Eventually the Wilfs bought the team, and they continued the blackmail: new stadium or else (with Los Angeles the most commonly threatened site). Minnesotans were absolutely unwilling to lose the Vikings, and a $1 billion stadium, US Bank Stadium, was funded and built, about half on the taxpayers’ dime despite the private ownership of the building and surrounding space. In baseball, the Twins were threatened with contraction in 2002, but the franchise responded by getting yet another new stadium built and going on a pretty solid run during the ‘00s. In basketball, the Lakers weren’t the last of it! They left in 1960 and it took just a hair under 30 years for the city to care enough to bring back major-league professional basketball. However, within only a few years, the Wolves almost left for New Orleans. Commissioner David Stern stepped in and eventually local billionaire Glen Taylor purchased the team to keep it here. However, I have to admit, a lot of people at that time said, “whatever, good riddance: the Wolves are terrible.” I’d say people care more about the Vikings having threatened to move, but not actually moved, than they do about the Lakers having actually moved. Had the Vikings actually gone anywhere, I think the state would have ponied up the money to lure another team immediately. And that other team would have been public enemy number one for decades.
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Jan 29, 2020 17:33:26 GMT
Post by kds on Jan 29, 2020 17:33:26 GMT
I know Baltimore didn't mourn the loss of the Bullets anywhere near like they did with the Colts. In fact, since they moved to nearby DC (Landover, MD technically), a lot of local basketball fans continued to root for them, and the Bullets even played a few home games a year in Baltimore until they moved into the MCI Center in downtown DC around 1997 and changed their name to the Wizards.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:17:55 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 29, 2020 18:17:55 GMT
This isn’t meant to disrespect Kobe Bryant or the tragedy of his and his daughter’s deaths. He was a great player and for anyone to see an early, unnatural end is tremendously sad. This is about perception and basketball. I think I knew it, more or less, but the past few days have crystalized for me the generational difference in people’s perceptions of Kobe Bryant as a basketball player. I think for people my age and older, he is a great player. One of the better wings—and even players—in history. But emphasis on the “one of the.” The argument that he was better than Michael Jordan is, at least to me, absurd. It doesn’t diminish Kobe in the slightest to say so. But consider the below, especially in the context of Kobe playing 20 seasons to Jordan’s 15. Titles: Jordan, 6 to 5 (40% of seasons to 25% of seasons) Playoff appearances: Kobe, 15 to 13 ( but Jordan 87% of seasons, Kobe 75% of seasons) MVPs: Jordan, 5 to 1 (33% of seasons to 5% of seasons) Finals MVPs: Jordan, 6 to 2 (40% to 10%) All-NBA First Team: Kobe, 11 to 10 (but Jordan, 67% to 55%) Scoring Titles: Jordan, 10 to 2 (67% to 10%) PPG: Jordan, 30.1 to 25.0 RPG: Jordan, 6.2 to 5.2 APG: Jordan, 5.3 to 4.7 SPG: Jordan, 2.3 to 1.4 BPG: Jordan, .8 to .5 FG%: Jordan, .497 to .447 3pt%: Kobe, .329 to .327 FT%: Kobe, .37 to .835 Peak season PPG: Jordan, 37.1 to 35.4 Peak RPG: Jordan, 8 to 6.9 Peak APG: Jordan 8 to 6.3 Peak SPG: Jordan 3.2 to 2.2 Peak BPG: Jordan, 1.6 to 1.0 What’s more, Kobe steadfastly refused to change his game as the game changed around him. Whereas late-career Michael Jordan began to gradually defer (with Jerry Stackhouse the leading scorer and shot-taker his final season) and, per Doug Collins’s game plan, typically played a forward position and did a lot of his work on the post, Kobe continued to dominate the ball (with his final season’s usage rate at 32.2 above his career average of 31.8; final season for Jordan was 28.7, well below his average of 33.3) and take the shots he wanted to take and historically took … hitting in the mid-30%s because of it, his final two seasons. Yet I keep reading things like “retire numbers 8 and 24 for the entire NBA.” Tragedy aside, I’m sorry, but that is not warranted for someone who is the second-best shooting guard in league history and probably barely, if at all, in the all-time Top 10 players.* I think people who keep saying he is the greatest of all time simply don’t know enough basketball history. (I would probably put Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Oscar, Magic, Larry, Duncan, and Lebron ahead of him with almost no hesitation. At that point, it gets interesting, with him in the company of people like Dr. J, Nowitzki, Barkley, Karl Malone, KG, and probably another 5 or 10 guys worthy of those next few spots.) Thanks for that analysis. I've never seen the comparison broken down in such statistical detail. Great job!
Whenever there is sudden, tragic passing of a culturally influential, iconic person - in any field - you are going to have an outpouring of praise, some of it going over-the-top. I know you know that. I've seen a lot of the Kobe coverage over the last three days, probably too much as it's starting to get to me. I haven't really seen discussions that opined or proclaimed Kobe AS GOOD OR BETTER than Michael Jordan. The coverage that I've seen has mostly said that Kobe wanted to be as good or better than Jordan, patterned his game after Mike, developed the killer mentality and relentless determination like Jordan, and even started to talk/sound like Michael Jordan. But I haven't seen anyone say that he was as good as Michael. Mostly, I've heard the commentators (journalists, personalities, ex-players, ex-coaches) say that Kobe was certainly ONE of the all-time greats who will also be remembered as kind of a bridge between Michael Jordan and LeBron James, somebody who competed against both.
Personally, in my fandom, Kobe was always "the enemy", somebody who played on the other coast, on that other rival team, the Lakers. Philly fans were always kind of resentful that Kobe left Philadelphia to go to L.A., not that Kobe had anything to do with that. Jerry West was the one with the foresight. I viewed Kobe with an old-fashioned term that you don't see used much anymore. I thought Kobe was "a gun" or "a gunner", somebody who came down the court and was gonna get his shot some way. And he usually did. And he did it very well indeed. Over the years, Kobe wore me down and I began to appreciate him more. I'm a fan of longevity and consistency, and Kobe certainly excelled in those two areas. I especially admired the way he came back from the Achilles tendon injury later in his career. That injury would've ended many a career.
A few years ago we had a neat discussion about our personal Mount Rushmore Of The NBA. With Kobe's tragic passing, I've been revisiting that topic in my head. My personal Mount Rushmore - at least three of them - hasn't changed over the last few years. Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, and the last addition, LeBron James are the three that I feel very strongly about. The fourth one has been elusive. I can't decide. Most of my considerations are the obvious names, the usual suspects. But I will say, and not just because of this tragedy, that I have been seriously considering Kobe Bryant as the fourth NBA player on my personal Mount Rushmore.
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