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Post by kds on Jan 22, 2020 13:06:45 GMT
Till I Die...was it the last great BW song? Yes! I've said this for a long time that, while I believe Brian Wilson did write a lot of good songs in the almost 50 years since, Til I Die was the last truly brilliant work of genius from Brian D. Wilson.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 22, 2020 13:28:56 GMT
A funny thing happened to "Til I Die" that I have mentioned on other message boards in the past, but I've never seen it addressed anywhere else. The original released version of "Til I Die" that appeared on the Surf's Up album and as a single in 1971 clocked in at 2:29. Then, when "Til I Die" appeared on Ten Years Of Harmony in 1981, it clocked in at 2:39. When Ten Years Of Harmony was eventually released on CD, "Til I Die" was back to 2:29. Finally, when the Sunflower/Surf's Up 2fer CD was released, "Til I Die" then clocked in at 2:44, 15 seconds longer than the original 1971 version. The additional 15 seconds were just tacked on the end of the song, extending the closing tag.
Whenever I bring this up, it is usually accompanied by a point. We will frequently read about how numerous people over the years have mistreated Brian Wilson and specifically his art. Who made these decisions to mess with "Til I Die", arguably one of Brian's greatest compositions? And this wasn't just a matter of releasing an alternate version or an alternate mix; that's a different matter. This was just somebody - and I'd love to know who it was - who decided to "play with" the song and tack additional time onto the end. Now, while the entire song is great, the tag to "Til I Die" is especially awesome, I personally don't think it should've been messed with. The first time I heard the 2:44 version I realized immediately that something wasn't quite right. They just looped the tag...for some reason. I'm assuming the reason was that, again, somebody thought it would be cool to extend it, but who gave them the right to do so?
There's a .0000000001% chance that the composer, Brian Wilson, gave the permission or even knew about it, or is even aware of it today. He could probably care less, but I do.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 22, 2020 19:41:26 GMT
Thanks for pointing that out, SJS. I wasn’t aware of the different mixes/edits. I assumed the twofer and original were identical.
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Post by lonelysummer on Jan 23, 2020 6:54:34 GMT
A funny thing happened to "Til I Die" that I have mentioned on other message boards in the past, but I've never seen it addressed anywhere else. The original released version of "Til I Die" that appeared on the Surf's Up album and as a single in 1971 clocked in at 2:29. Then, when "Til I Die" appeared on Ten Years Of Harmony in 1981, it clocked in at 2:39. When Ten Years Of Harmony was eventually released on CD, "Til I Die" was back to 2:29. Finally, when the Sunflower/Surf's Up 2fer CD was released, "Til I Die" then clocked in at 2:44, 15 seconds longer than the original 1971 version. The additional 15 seconds were just tacked on the end of the song, extending the closing tag.
Whenever I bring this up, it is usually accompanied by a point. We will frequently read about how numerous people over the years have mistreated Brian Wilson and specifically his art. Who made these decisions to mess with "Til I Die", arguably one of Brian's greatest compositions? And this wasn't just a matter of releasing an alternate version or an alternate mix; that's a different matter. This was just somebody - and I'd love to know who it was - who decided to "play with" the song and tack additional time onto the end. Now, while the entire song is great, the tag to "Til I Die" is especially awesome, I personally don't think it should've been messed with. The first time I heard the 2:44 version I realized immediately that something wasn't quite right. They just looped the tag...for some reason. I'm assuming the reason was that, again, somebody thought it would be cool to extend it, but who gave them the right to do so?
There's a .0000000001% chance that the composer, Brian Wilson, gave the permission or even knew about it, or is even aware of it today. He could probably care less, but I do.
Years ago - might have been in David Leaf's book - I read about a long version of the song. Did this ever get released? I have - on an old tape somewhere - a recording of some fans talking to Brian in his hotel room about the long version, and Brian denies it's existence. But then one of the guys pulls out a bootleg album, Hawthorne Hotshots, and shows it to Brian. And Brian suddenly gets very quiet. (and this was decades ago, when Brian still liked to blab his head off, .
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 23, 2020 13:02:49 GMT
Didn’t Desper say that wasn’t really ever intended as an official version or intended for release, but was just his own creation for fun in the studio? I believe he just looped some of it and then played with the mix. But it wasn’t as if there was more content, different sections, additional lyrics.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 23, 2020 13:05:45 GMT
A funny thing happened to "Til I Die" that I have mentioned on other message boards in the past, but I've never seen it addressed anywhere else. The original released version of "Til I Die" that appeared on the Surf's Up album and as a single in 1971 clocked in at 2:29. Then, when "Til I Die" appeared on Ten Years Of Harmony in 1981, it clocked in at 2:39. When Ten Years Of Harmony was eventually released on CD, "Til I Die" was back to 2:29. Finally, when the Sunflower/Surf's Up 2fer CD was released, "Til I Die" then clocked in at 2:44, 15 seconds longer than the original 1971 version. The additional 15 seconds were just tacked on the end of the song, extending the closing tag.
Whenever I bring this up, it is usually accompanied by a point. We will frequently read about how numerous people over the years have mistreated Brian Wilson and specifically his art. Who made these decisions to mess with "Til I Die", arguably one of Brian's greatest compositions? And this wasn't just a matter of releasing an alternate version or an alternate mix; that's a different matter. This was just somebody - and I'd love to know who it was - who decided to "play with" the song and tack additional time onto the end. Now, while the entire song is great, the tag to "Til I Die" is especially awesome, I personally don't think it should've been messed with. The first time I heard the 2:44 version I realized immediately that something wasn't quite right. They just looped the tag...for some reason. I'm assuming the reason was that, again, somebody thought it would be cool to extend it, but who gave them the right to do so?
There's a .0000000001% chance that the composer, Brian Wilson, gave the permission or even knew about it, or is even aware of it today. He could probably care less, but I do.
Years ago - might have been in David Leaf's book - I read about a long version of the song. Did this ever get released? I have - on an old tape somewhere - a recording of some fans talking to Brian in his hotel room about the long version, and Brian denies it's existence. But then one of the guys pulls out a bootleg album, Hawthorne Hotshots, and shows it to Brian. And Brian suddenly gets very quiet. (and this was decades ago, when Brian still liked to blab his head off, . The only other long(er) version of "Til I Die" that I'm familiar with is the 4:52 version that was officially released on the Endless Harmony Soundtrack. This version was created (impressively BTW) by Stephen Desper. This is what Desper had to say about it:
"[the band] went out for lunch or something like that and since the song was already mounted and a mix up, I put together what I thought was a structure that better showcased the harmonic beauty of Brian's writing. Somewhere thereafter I did play the track for Carl, but only in the interest of disclosure, not to sway him to change the structure that Brian intended."
I'm expecting some kind of alternate version to be released on the upcoming multi-CD set, but I'm not holding my breath that it will be mind-blowing, or IMO it would've surfaced in some form by now. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a vocals-only version (see below) or an instrumental version.
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Post by lonelysummer on Jan 24, 2020 5:50:31 GMT
Years ago - might have been in David Leaf's book - I read about a long version of the song. Did this ever get released? I have - on an old tape somewhere - a recording of some fans talking to Brian in his hotel room about the long version, and Brian denies it's existence. But then one of the guys pulls out a bootleg album, Hawthorne Hotshots, and shows it to Brian. And Brian suddenly gets very quiet. (and this was decades ago, when Brian still liked to blab his head off, . The only other long(er) version of "Til I Die" that I'm familiar with is the 4:52 version that was officially released on the Endless Harmony Soundtrack. This version was created (impressively BTW) by Stephen Desper. This is what Desper had to say about it:
"[the band] went out for lunch or something like that and since the song was already mounted and a mix up, I put together what I thought was a structure that better showcased the harmonic beauty of Brian's writing. Somewhere thereafter I did play the track for Carl, but only in the interest of disclosure, not to sway him to change the structure that Brian intended."
I'm expecting some kind of alternate version to be released on the upcoming multi-CD set, but I'm not holding my breath that it will be mind-blowing, or IMO it would've surfaced in some form by now. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a vocals-only version (see below) or an instrumental version.
Thanks, I had forgotten about that version. I vaguely recall someone being quoted - again, probably in Leaf's book - that the released version of Till I Die was not what Brian had wanted, but that the group tampered with it. Probably some quote in there, too, attributed to Mike, saying "that song is depressing". Not saying I believe all this - it was typical of the pro-Brian, anti-rest-of-the-Beach-Boys bias in much of the writing about the group back then.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 24, 2020 13:01:25 GMT
The only other long(er) version of "Til I Die" that I'm familiar with is the 4:52 version that was officially released on the Endless Harmony Soundtrack. This version was created (impressively BTW) by Stephen Desper. This is what Desper had to say about it:
"[the band] went out for lunch or something like that and since the song was already mounted and a mix up, I put together what I thought was a structure that better showcased the harmonic beauty of Brian's writing. Somewhere thereafter I did play the track for Carl, but only in the interest of disclosure, not to sway him to change the structure that Brian intended."
I'm expecting some kind of alternate version to be released on the upcoming multi-CD set, but I'm not holding my breath that it will be mind-blowing, or IMO it would've surfaced in some form by now. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a vocals-only version (see below) or an instrumental version.
Thanks, I had forgotten about that version. I vaguely recall someone being quoted - again, probably in Leaf's book - that the released version of Till I Die was not what Brian had wanted, but that the group tampered with it. Probably some quote in there, too, attributed to Mike, saying "that song is depressing". Not saying I believe all this - it was typical of the pro-Brian, anti-rest-of-the-Beach-Boys bias in much of the writing about the group back then. Yes, that's the prevailing story I've read through the years. Brian wrote the song (music AND words), played it for the group, somebody in the group (Mike?) didn't like the depressing lyrics, Brian shelved it for months, only to revisit it and finally record/release it.
It sounds a lot like the "Cabin Essence" scenario. Mike questioned some of the lyrics, but the lyrics prevailed and Mike sang his part great.
Bruce Johnston has been quoted as saying that "Til I Die" is the last great Brian Wilson song. I think this statement was made pre-1980. Anybody agree with Bruce's opinion?
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Post by kds on Jan 24, 2020 13:09:43 GMT
Thanks, I had forgotten about that version. I vaguely recall someone being quoted - again, probably in Leaf's book - that the released version of Till I Die was not what Brian had wanted, but that the group tampered with it. Probably some quote in there, too, attributed to Mike, saying "that song is depressing". Not saying I believe all this - it was typical of the pro-Brian, anti-rest-of-the-Beach-Boys bias in much of the writing about the group back then. Yes, that's the prevailing story I've read through the years. Brian wrote the song (music AND words), played it for the group, somebody in the group (Mike?) didn't like the depressing lyrics, Brian shelved it for months, only to revisit it and finally record/release it.
It sounds a lot like the "Cabin Essence" scenario. Mike questioned some of the lyrics, but the lyrics prevailed and Mike sang his part great.
Bruce Johnston has been quoted as saying that "Til I Die" is the last great Brian Wilson song. I think this statement was made pre-1980. Anybody agree with Bruce's opinion?
Last great Brian Wilson song? Hmmm, probably not because I think he has some great later era songs (how much is Brian and how much is Scott Bennett / Joe Thomas can be debated), but the last awe inspiring work of an artistic genius, yes. So, rather than bog dog Bruce in semantics, I'd say I agree with him. And I do recall the story of Mike saying "man, that song's a bummer," but who the hell knows. Then, there's also the story in Rolling Stone of Mike making the "shoot myself in the head" motion when listening to the playback of Summer's Gone.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 24, 2020 13:16:34 GMT
I don't agree: I don't think it's necessarily any better than the best half-dozen to ten songs that came after it, whether "The Night Was So Young" and "I'll Bet He's Nice" just a few years later, "Melt Away" and "Love & Mercy" early in the solo career, or "Midnight's Another Day," "From There to Back Again," and "Saturday Night on Hollywood Boulevard" among his later stuff.
But I would say this: it is of a quality that he attained far less after than he had before. The entirety of Pet Sounds is of a similar quality to "Til I Die"; you're lucky to get one song per album afterward that compares.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 24, 2020 13:23:57 GMT
Not to speak for Bruce or misconstrue what he said but again, I think the statement did appear in David Leaf's book which would predate any BW solo efforts and, of course, That's Why God Made The Radio. Also, I wonder if Bruce, when using the term "great", didn't really mean "genius"? And, that is certainly a subjective term/argument, too.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 24, 2020 13:27:28 GMT
Also, I wonder if Bruce, when using the term "great", didn't really mean "genius"? And, that is certainly a subjective term/argument, too. Yeah, I have to say I don't think that would clear up the issue at all. What are the results of genius if not greatness?
The point about it being before his solo work does make a difference, though. Because while I'd still include a few Love You songs in that mix, I can see where the bizarre lyrics and bad singing would be negatives for a lot of people, and especially someone as traditionalist as Bruce.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 24, 2020 13:38:29 GMT
Also, I wonder if Bruce, when using the term "great", didn't really mean "genius"? And, that is certainly a subjective term/argument, too. Yeah, I have to say I don't think that would clear up the issue at all. What are the results of genius if not greatness?
The point about it being before his solo work does make a difference, though. Because while I'd still include a few Love You songs in that mix, I can see where the bizarre lyrics and bad singing would be negatives for a lot of people, and especially someone as traditionalist as Bruce.
And, Bruce wasn't with the band for the recording of Love You like he was with Surf's Up. I think that would absolutely influence Bruce's opinion.
Back to kds's post where he mentioned Mike's negative comments about certain "depressing" songs. Of course we know that those depressing songs were ultimately recorded and released on That's Why God Made Made The Radio, and "Summer's Gone" was performed during the C50 tour. There was mention of a longer BW-composed suite that wasn't completed for TWGMTR, but I don't know anything more about it.
Also, maybe Mike's opinion of "Til I Die" has changed, as The Beach Boys have performed the song numerous times over the last several years.
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Post by kds on Jan 24, 2020 13:40:06 GMT
Not to speak for Bruce or misconstrue what he said but again, I think the statement did appear in David Leaf's book which would predate any BW solo efforts and, of course, That's Why God Made The Radio. Also, I wonder if Bruce, when using the term "great", didn't really mean "genius"? And, that is certainly a subjective term/argument, too. If I recall, he also made a similar statement in the Endless Harmony doc, and one that doc, I always interpreted that the early 70s was sort of the dividing line between the genius works and what came later.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 24, 2020 13:42:30 GMT
Yeah, I have to say I don't think that would clear up the issue at all. What are the results of genius if not greatness?
The point about it being before his solo work does make a difference, though. Because while I'd still include a few Love You songs in that mix, I can see where the bizarre lyrics and bad singing would be negatives for a lot of people, and especially someone as traditionalist as Bruce.
And, Bruce wasn't with the band for the recording of Love You like he was with Surf's Up. I think that would absolutely influence Bruce's opinion.
Back to kds's post where he mentioned Mike's negative comments about certain "depressing" songs. Of course we know that those depressing songs were ultimately recorded and released on That's Why God Made Made The Radio, and "Summer's Gone" was performed during the C50 tour. There was mention of a longer BW-composed suite that wasn't completed for TWGMTR, but I don't know anything more about it.
Also, maybe Mike's opinion of "Til I Die" has changed, as The Beach Boys have performed the song numerous times over the last several years.
Yes, "the Life Suite" has been referenced, I think mostly (if not solely) by Joe Thomas. At least the last three songs on TWGMTR are from it, and maybe "Strange World?" But there were apparently also some other parts. It isn't clear how much of it was done, how much more there was, and from what I recall at least some of it was just interstitial music.
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