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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 15:16:50 GMT
I can't think of anything good this week, so I'm going after some low hanging fruit - The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I could bore everyone with the long long list of deserving bands that aren't in, but we've all seen / read it before in some form or another. I think the Hall's biggest flaw is that there is no clear criteria. The nominees are selected at the whim of music elitist Jann Wenner, and other select people who've probably never paid money for an album or concert ticket in their lives, and in some cases, don't even know what the **** rock and roll is. Do you have to sell a ton of records to make it? I guess not. Or else Foreigner would be in. Is it influence? I guess not. Thin Lizzy's not in. It took Deep Purple ages. Granted, things have improved since they've opened voting to the fans. And my God, I wish they had a camera on Jann Wenner when Journey, Bon Jovi, and Def Leppard were all inducted. But, they still have a long way to go. Why would a band like Radiohead get a nod over an act whose been around for 40, 50, or almost 60 years whose members might not be shuffling on this coil much longer? Why do rap artists get in? There are more hip hop artists than heavy metal bands. WTF!!!! Did Stevie Nicks's solo career really warrant induction? OK, I realize I'm now doing exactly what I said I wouldn't, sorry. I know I shouldn't get bent out of shape about this, but it really does matter to the bands and many of their fans. And many of the snubs are downright disrespectful. Anyway, hopefully, I'll have a better topic next week.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 15:33:41 GMT
Low-hanging fruit? Yes. Legitimate? Yes.
The diversity of bands in the Hall wouldn't bother me if it weren't the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. I'm even OK using rock n roll broadly to include all popular music. Fine. I guess. (Which is funny because in my real life I'm a borderline aspbergers type who categorizes everything.)
But the way some popular acts got in long ago--Madonna made it in 2008!--while other massively popular acts like Def Leppard have only just gotten in and some still are outside, that bugs me. That some legacy performers are in as solo artists with very questionable solo credentials (George Harrison, Ringo Starr, Lou Reed), that bugs me.
For me this is one of those things that I just had to push out of my mind entirely. Every year it comes and goes and I don't even keep up anymore. I see questionable lists nominated, questionable lists inducted, questionable lists excluded. OK, carry on. I'll catch the best performances on YouTube.
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 15:39:07 GMT
I think the diversity of artists, even with the RNR label, wouldn't bother me as much if they were more inclusive. Heavy metal, prog, AOR, and 80s glam rock have all been mostly ignored, save for a small handful of bands.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 15:42:05 GMT
100% agree. That's why I wanted to call out the Madonna thing, because that's a pop artist, right? I mean, she's not an artiste. There's nothing elite about her work. Nothing genius. Pure pop. So why her, and not the 80s and AOR music?
And then you have avante garde artists sometimes, like Laura Nyro, Frank Zappa, Velvet Underground, and Tom Waits, but not more prog and metal acts who aren't popular but are artistically advanced?
It just seems to be a matter of playing favorites. I assume you're right in that it's the influence of Jan Wenner (though I don't pay enough attention to say that definitively).
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 15:54:07 GMT
For whatever reason, a lot of music elitists discount great musicianship, which is why I think prog, metal, and even AOR tends to be pushed to the side in favor of punk or grunge.
But, the more I try to find logic in their choices, the less sense it actually makes.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 16:04:28 GMT
Must be a full moon or something because we're agreeing on everything. I remember when Nirvana became popular, I pointed out to some friends how if Cobain was a good guitarist, he certainly didn't demonstrate that. What they inevitably said was that there was "so much feeling in every note," even if it was sloppy. That is nonsense. It's stupid when people say it about wannabe blues hacks, and it is stupid when they say it about grunge bands. Many bands of that era were quite simply bad at their instruments.
That said, I will give credit where credit is due: virtuosity isn't NECESSARY to make great rock and roll (or other music). Obviously. No "music of the people" can require virtuosity, almost by definition. Maybe the lyrics are brilliant, maybe there are sing-along refrains that inspire people, etc.
But that doesn't mean we ought to discount actual virtuosity! It isn't everything, but it sure as hell isn't nothing.
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 16:15:25 GMT
Must be a full moon or something because we're agreeing on everything. I remember when Nirvana became popular, I pointed out to some friends how if Cobain was a good guitarist, he certainly didn't demonstrate that. What they inevitably said was that there was "so much feeling in every note," even if it was sloppy. That is nonsense. It's stupid when people say it about wannabe blues hacks, and it is stupid when they say it about grunge bands. Many bands of that era were quite simply bad at their instruments.
That said, I will give credit where credit is due: virtuosity isn't NECESSARY to make great rock and roll (or other music). Obviously. No "music of the people" can require virtuosity, almost by definition. Maybe the lyrics are brilliant, maybe there are sing-along refrains that inspire people, etc.
But that doesn't mean we ought to discount actual virtuosity! It isn't everything, but it sure as hell isn't nothing.
I've heard people say that about grunge singers too. The grunge band popularized the technique of "yarling," and essentially ruined male rock vocals forever. But, defenders will say that those singers "emote" more than the cleaner sounding AOR or 80s singers. Bull plop. I do agree that virtuosity isn't 100% necessary. After all, we're Beach Boys fans, and there's very little in terms of instrumental virtuosity in their music. On the flip side, I think Dream Theater are amazing musicians, but alas, their songs just aren't that good.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 16:20:30 GMT
I guess I just think about it almost like some video games or role-playing games. Back in my video-game playing days, I remember creating basketball players or football players and they'd have traits: speed, route running, strength, hands, or whatever. Odds are, if you're 100 in something and 0 in everything else, it's not going to work. And if you're just 50 across the board, that's kind of dull. But there are a lot of combinations that DO work.
In music, that means someone virtuosic with nothing else, that's dull. Someone who has all the emotion in the world but can't write and can't play and can't sing ... I dont' even know what that is, but it's not music. But there are technicians out there who, over time, you just realize add so much to music. Or singers who really do bring a certain something beyond technique, be it lyrics, melodies, or yes, emotion. Many paths to greatness.
It's just a shame that some of them are basically blacklisted, reputationally. You make people want to sing along? That's corny and passe, you commoner! You're a brilliant instrumentalist whose songs are complex? Go practice in your parents' basement, loser. I don't get it.
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 16:23:53 GMT
I guess I just think about it almost like some video games or role-playing games. Back in my video-game playing days, I remember creating basketball players or football players and they'd have traits: speed, route running, strength, hands, or whatever. Odds are, if you're 100 in something and 0 in everything else, it's not going to work. And if you're just 50 across the board, that's kind of dull. But there are a lot of combinations that DO work.
In music, that means someone virtuosic with nothing else, that's dull. Someone who has all the emotion in the world but can't write and can't play and can't sing ... I dont' even know what that is, but it's not music. But there are technicians out there who, over time, you just realize add so much to music. Or singers who really do bring a certain something beyond technique, be it lyrics, melodies, or yes, emotion. Many paths to greatness.
It's just a shame that some of them are basically blacklisted, reputationally. You make people want to sing along? That's corny and passe, you commoner! You're a brilliant instrumentalist whose songs are complex? Go practice in your parents' basement, loser. I don't get it.
I think that's my big issue too. I don't get it. People have a problem with great melodic songs that people want to sing along too, yet The Beatles are the most revered band of all time. People scoff at brilliant playing, yet Hendrix is arguably the most celebrated guitarist of all time. It doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 16:34:50 GMT
That it doesn’t make sense to you is just evidence that you’re sane and reasonable.
EDIT: All this said, there is still a ton of room to argue the merits of various bands and artists. I'm not trying to say anyone with any particular strength automatically should make it. Just saying it is bizarre how things are going.
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 17:29:49 GMT
A quick Beach Boys related aside about the RNRHOF. A few years ago, when I still posted on the Brian Wilson Forum, there was a discussion that Brian Wilson should be inducted as a solo artist. Personally, I think that's a big stretch because his solo career is such a mixed bag, and relies heavily on his Beach Boys past. But, I can't help but thing, with the elitists and hipsters running the show, and how cool and hip is it to dislike one Michael E. Love, it really wouldn't shock me to see Brian get a separation induction, to somehow separate Brian from Mike's lyrics and car / surf songs and to slap Mike in the face.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 17:35:49 GMT
I think that's possible. It's insane, but it's possible.
I think Brian Wilson's solo output is substantially above some of those guys I mentioned above, like Ringo and Harrison. Maybe not in charts or sales, but BWPS alone warrants mention in the history of rock and roll: that one is a legendary move that has maybe lost luster now just because of the Smile Sessions, etc. But seriously, at the time? That was a holy grail finally discovered, and to almost universal acclaim. His debut was well received. Gershwin was. TLOS was. A lot of good, not much great.
That shouldn't warrant a HoF spot ... but what does "should" have to do with it? Hipsterism, elitism, anti-Mikeism, just his all-around influence (doesn't California love Brian Wilson, their very own living legendary lunatic?)... Plus the success story that they keep shoving in our face about his triumph over mental illness? I could see it.
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2019 17:46:46 GMT
I think that's possible. It's insane, but it's possible.
I think Brian Wilson's solo output is substantially above some of those guys I mentioned above, like Ringo and Harrison. Maybe not in charts or sales, but BWPS alone warrants mention in the history of rock and roll: that one is a legendary move that has maybe lost luster now just because of the Smile Sessions, etc. But seriously, at the time? That was a holy grail finally discovered, and to almost universal acclaim. His debut was well received. Gershwin was. TLOS was. A lot of good, not much great.
That shouldn't warrant a HoF spot ... but what does "should" have to do with it? Hipsterism, elitism, anti-Mikeism, just his all-around influence (doesn't California love Brian Wilson, their very own living legendary lunatic?)... Plus the success story that they keep shoving in our face about his triumph over mental illness? I could see it.
I could see a movement to want to remove Brian's most revered works, Pet Sounds and Smile, away from the Beach Boys catalog so it's not in the same conversation as....say Kokomo. I think to a certain extent Brian's camp has kinda done that by touring Pet Sounds as a live piece over the last several decades and the Brian Wilson Presents Smile shows / album. I'd definitely put Brian's solo career above Ringo's, but not George. All Things Must Pass, Living in the Material World, Self Titled, Cloud Nine, and Brainwashed are all better than the best BW solo releases. Even BWPS is essentially a reappropriated Beach Boys album. And while the quality of their solo releases can be debated, there's one thing that can't be debated. George had far more success as a solo artist. The fact that Brian's solo career started over 25 years into his professional career didn't help.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2019 17:48:15 GMT
Agreed re the success differential.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 28, 2019 21:05:56 GMT
I'm sure Jann Wenner has influence, but I'm not sure how much. I think he might have more say in people getting in than people not getting in.
I used to be pretty passionate about the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame, especially when it started in the late 1980's. That was probably because of all the greats who were being inducted, most of whom were my personal favorites. At the same time, obviously, the list starting out was full of deserving artists who weren't in - yet - and that bothered me. But you know what? Over time many of my favorites did get in, and the list of snubs has gotten progressively smaller. There is a down side to that, though. Like most halls, things eventually get "watered down". They let in too many people to be frank. And I don't mean they were or weren't my personal favorites, they just didn't have the credentials, in my not so humble opinion. To me, a hall of fame denotes greatness, and if somebody isn't great, not just very good but great, well...
Like I said, the list of deserving artists is dwindling, thankfully. But there's still a few artists that I do wish would be recognized, and I'll name them:
- Three Dog Night - The Guess Who - The Monkees - Tommy James & The Shondells
- Jan & Dean - Blue Oyster Cult - Slade
Don't underestimate the power of the single!
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